Minor issue loading .223 Rem (AR)

[Nick_C_S]

Hi, I've been loading for handgun for over three decades; but just started loading for rifle (AR15 .223 only) a couple months ago.

A minor issue I've been running into is when I seat the bullet, sometimes - maybe one in 15 or so - the shoulder will slightly buckle (hardly noticeable), making the round where it won't quite drop freely into my chamber checker.

I've been pulling these rounds and haven't fired any. But I have two questions:

1), How critical is it? Can I fire these? We're talking the round sitting maybe 10 - 20 thousandths above the chamber checker deck.

2), How/what can I do to alleviate the problem in the first place?

I'm not sure what other info I need to add . . . I'm using an RCBS die. The die body is set to where the crimp is just starting to impinge (not enough to actually crimp). I trim to 1.755" max. VLD chamfer. Deburred. Full-length sizing w/ RCBS small base. Happens with all bullets I've used (Sierra 55gn flat-base & BT; Sierra 65gn BT; Winchester 64gn flat-base).

Any insight would be helpful.
Thanks,
Nick.

 

[IMtheNRA]

In my experience, the only time I collapsed .223 cases was when the seating die was too low and it was crimping the case. Since there is no need to crimp .223, you may as well raise the die a little more.

Your damged rounds may not allow the bolt to lock, and they may be difficult to extract from the chamber if you decide to eject a chambered live round.

 

[FrankenMauser]

Sounds like crimping while seating, possibly including some case length and/or neck wall thickness variation.

Back the die body off a quarter turn (~0.018"), readjust for seating depth, and give it another shot.


I never crimp rifle rounds while seating bullets, and rarely have the crimp ring anywhere close to the case mouth during the process. If I want to crimp, I do so as an additional step - even if it's just a little kiss to make sure things are consistent.


It could also be a bur left in the neck, if you didn't chamfer and debur after trimming.

 

[Chainsaw.]

Yup, Ive had this issue once and it was the die screwed in juuuust a tad to much.

 

[Metal god]

I agree with the others . This issue is almost always the die/crimp that is collapsing the shoulder and not the neck tension . Now if memory serves , you are flaring the necks in order to get the flat based bullets to seat easier . This leads me to assume you are using the crimp to straighten out the flare and not actually crimping the bullet . Either way when using a seating/crimping die combo . All cases should be trimmed to the same length every time . I recommend seating only and crimping in a separate stage/station . The Lee factory crimp die would be perfect for this .

I would recommend against firing those out of spec rounds , .010 is sitting way up in the air . How ever you can check and see if they will chamber . I do this with dummy rounds when I'm checking case head space after sizing or when running other sizing test . Not sure I recommend this with a live round because it may stick it in the chamber which may require you to mortar it out .

OK , lock the BCG back/open then manually drop the round into the chamber . Now slowly ride the BCG home by holding the charging handle slowly easing it into place to where it stops . Then "lightly" tap on the forward assist . If the round is going to chamber it should not take much effort for the forward assist to push the bolt into battery . DO NOT FORCE IT . If it does not chamber it's out of spec and you need to pull those bullets and resize the case with the decapping rod/pin out so not to pop the primer out or just slowly deprime the case and start over .

 

[Nick_C_S]

you are flaring the necks in order to get the flat based bullets to seat easier.

Well, yes. And no. The last batch of 50 of the flat-based bullets, I didn't flair, and just struggled with keeping the bullet straight and got 'em seated (no crimp). I dropped about a dozen bullets, as they fell off while trying to move them into the shell holder, and it's a royal PITA, but I did it. And I will struggle with loading the remainder of those bullets (Win 64gn PP; about 160 remaining) without flair/crimp. But I'm not buying any more - just not worth the hassle.

The other bullet is a 65gn Sierra SBT (boat tail); and I've never flaired or crimped those. And it is the sole bullet I will buy moving forward.

But with either bullet, I'm getting the slight shoulder buckle.

At any rate, when I did crimp, I used a Lee FCD and according to my range RSO - who seriously knows his stuff - he states that it is nearly impossible for the Lee FCD to buckle the shoulder. And judging by how I see how it works - given my meager machinist knowledge - such would seem to be the case. The FCD pushes from the sides, not the top. Moot point at any rate. As every round I FCD'd, it chambered before and after crimping just the same. And all that is neither here nor there - it's outside my issue. I'm talking about rounds I'm not crimping.

I will try to back off the die body on my next load session (could be a while). But I don't think that's the issue. When I set the die body, I ran a sized case up to the top; and screwed the die body down until I could just barely feel it touch the case. I don't see how that could possibly buckle the shoulder. I truly believe the shoulder is buckling as the bullet is being seated.

That said, I don't know. And that's why I'm asking for advice/information.

 

[T. O'Heir]

"...seating die was too low..." Yep. Can happen with any cartridge. Have a couple .30-06 with, um, broad shoulders. Usually not fixable though.
"...you are flaring the necks..." You do notflare bottle necked rifle cases. You chamfer the case mouths. After trimming, if you need to trim. Or with brand new cases. The type of bullet makes no difference.

 

[Metal god]

When I set the die body, I ran a sized case up to the top; and screwed the die body down until I could just barely feel it touch the case. I don't see how that could possibly buckle the shoulder

You said the die body . Which die , seating or FCD ?

If seating die and every case is trimmed too or less then the case used to set your die then no they should not buckle the shoulder . How ever if you set the die by using a case that was 1.750" or less and some of your case are 1.850" that could very well buckle the shoulder .

I'm sure you know this but I'll remind you that when bottleneck cases are sized they generally will grow in length do to the case being extruded forward as the body is sized down . It's also not uncommon for a case fired from an AR to be shorter after firing . Then there's case stretch at the web that makes the body longer then before it was fired . When you size that case the brass will be extruded forward making the case length longer . If you don't trim those cases back down to the size of the case used to set the die . At best you get an inconsistent crimp . At worst you buckle the shoulder .

I set my seating dies by screwing them down until they contact the case . Then back them off one full turn . This guaranties the seating die does not crimp or even touch the case regardless of case length .

If you're talking FCD then I have no idea what's going on .

 

[daboone]

Does anyone know the size (length and threads size) of the button head screws retaining the shell plate holder?

 

[Nick_C_S]

Which die

The seating die. The FCD is not in the picture with this situation at all.

I set the seating die body with a case that measured 1.760 - sammi max.

All my brass is trimmed to 1.755, or a little less (after trimming, they measure between 1.755 and 1.748-ish). Some brass is even shorter; and I just VLD chamfered them. I measure and trim as needed after every shooting.

Anyway, I screwed down the seating die body until it just touched the 1.760 case, and stopped, and locked it down. Next time I load, I'll double check it.

 

[Nick_C_S]

button head screws retaining the shell plate holder

Sorry, I don't know what that is.

Shell plate holder from which piece of equipment?

 

[Metal god]

Based on those measurement you should not be having this issue . I'm a bit perplexed about now . Now I'm going to have to put some real thought to this .

Can you feel it in the press when you buckle a shoulder ? Meaning does the bullet seat different or at the top of the stroke it feels a little different ?

I dropped about a dozen bullets, as they fell off while trying to move them into the shell holder

Can you explain in a little more detail what you mean there . I place my primed and charged case in the shell holder before placing the bullet on top leaving only the up stoke of the ram the bullet needs to stay on the case for .

 

[FrankenMauser]

Neck wall thickness variations and bullet diameter variations** can still cause problems, even if everything is trimmed to the same length.

Are you using mixed brass?
Mixed years of military brass?


**(Winchester PPs are horribly inconsistent. They can vary in every parameter possible - diameter, length, ogive-to-base, weight, jacket thickness, and on, and on. As you may have discovered, they're terrible bullets. I wouldn't be surprised if you measured 20-30 and found a few that were oversized.)

 

[Nick_C_S]

I place my primed and charged case in the shell holder before placing the bullet

I place the bullet atop, then move it over to the shell holder. I thought about trying it your way, but just kind of assumed it would be too hard to manipulate the bullet while the case is inside the press. Next time I load the Win 64 PP's I'll give it a whirl. "Most barriers are self-imposed." This might be one of those times. I'll take your adivce - thanks.

And speaking of Winchester 64gn PP's . . .

**(Winchester PPs are horribly inconsistent. They can vary in every parameter possible - diameter, length, ogive-to-base, weight, jacket thickness, and on, and on. As you may have discovered, they're terrible bullets. I wouldn't be surprised if you measured 20-30 and found a few that were oversized.)

Well I don't know about all of that; but it wouldn't surprise me. Since I'm only going to load the remaining ones I have (about 160), and buy no more, I'm not going to devote much time/brain power on analyzing them. It's moot now.

Are you using mixed brass?

Yes. But 90% of it is Federal American Eagle - from my factory ammo.

** (Off subject: Are these considered crimped primer brass? The pockets are very sharp-edged. But I don't know if that's what's called a "crimp." I do know I have to chamfer the pocket opening on them; otherwise, about one in five won't take a primer.)

The remainder are mostly Hornady - from my factory ammo. I have a few range pick-ups - Winchester, R-P, and a couple others. I had one range pickup (aquila, I think) that wouldn't size. The press bound about 3/4 of the way up the stroke - definitely didn't feel right. So I re-lubed it and tryed again - same thing. Knowing that a stuck case is a very real thing in the rifle loading world, I tossed it at that point.

All of the rounds that have the shoulder buckle issue have been the Federals, thus far. Some of this brass has been loaded up to three (maybe four) times. But I've had the issue since the brass was once-fired.

 

[Metal god]

Here are two different primer crimps . Staked and pressed or what ever the other is called . The staked primers are the ones with the 4 stake marks in them . The others have that circular depression in the case around the primer . They both need to be removed before priming .

Some crimps aren't as bad as others and you can seat the primer with out removing the crimp . How ever the only way you know this is to try and seat the primer or use the end of the swaging tool and see if it goes in the primer pocket all the way with no resistance . I find it easier to just swage all cases that are supposed to have a crimp . This just removes any doubt and I can just blow through the case prepping rather then testing every case .

Not all Federal cases are crimped but many are . If they were 5.56 AE then they are likely crimped .

 

[Nick_C_S]

Those "LC" cases have the same stamp as mine. Yeah, the pockets need to be chamfered out. Figured that out the first time priming . I just use my non-VLD chamfer tool. Seems to work.

 

[JeepHammer]

Everyone does things a little differently, it's up to them to figure out what works for them...

Personally, I just deburr the outside of rifle brass.
Just enough to take any deformation or burrs off the outside.
Tapering the case mouth does nothing, especially when you are crimping.
You aren't going to catch a reload on anything that a square mouth factory load doesn't catch on, so why bother thinning that mouth any more?

Loading boat tail bullets, all you need is deburring, no taper at all.

Loading square base bullets, you *Most Certianly* need an inside taper!
A square base bullet will hang on the mouth, collapsing the shoulder bend,
And, since not all bullets hang up, it is random which cases buckle and which don't...

Since you should NEVER flair a bottle neck rifle case, that option is out.

For what ever reason, it's never mentioned...
*IF* you intend to use the roll/taper crimp built into seating dies, the cases MUST be trimmed to the same length.

Longer cases, even by a few thousands, will crimp sooner/harder than shorter cases simply because a longer case will hit the crimp lip sooner in the ram stroke.

The 'Factory Crimp' (Collet type) dies activate/index from the shoulder of the case, using the shoulder of the case to power the crimp fingers that push in the crimp from the outside, instead of pushing straight down on the case mouth/shoulder.

The collet die stops a lot of buckled shoulders since it partly supports the shoulder, and because it doesn't press directly down on the neck/shoulder.

It's up to you, just trying to help you figure out what's happening.

 

[Mobuck]

"Well, yes. And no. The last batch of 50 of the flat-based bullets, I didn't flair, and just struggled with keeping the bullet straight and got 'em seated (no crimp). I dropped about a dozen bullets, as they fell off while trying to move them into the shell holder, and it's a royal PITA, but I did it. And I will struggle with loading the remainder of those bullets (Win 64gn PP; about 160 remaining) without flair/crimp. But I'm not buying any more - just not worth the hassle."

It is not customary to "flair" bottleneck rifle cases. A good chamfer on the case mouth is all that should be needed to ensure ease of bullet alignment and seating regardless of whether flat base or boat tail.