Ok so i am building a Mauser 98 and am getting close to being finished. But i dont like the two stage part of the trigger. Right now getting another one isnt an option. Is there a way to take the slack out of the military trigger without major smithing work. I am by no streach a smith but i am no slouch either. Just looking for an economical fix to my fixer upper
Military trigger fix?
- Thread starter hbhobby
- Start date
I own maybe 60 mausers mostly 98's I really don't care for the military 2 stage trigger either. I have tried a few things but most of them have wound up wearing a Bold Trigger with the side safety or more likely a Timney Blue sportsman trigger set at about 3 lbs . The Timneys can be had on sale for just under 50 bucks and install is a breeze , no machining necessary . Not exactly what you wanted to hear but that's been my solution...............LOUD
RaySendero
New member
Military trigger
Yep - That's been my experience, too.
You can smooth the 2nd stage, but can't get the 1st stage take-up out.
I've used both huber and timney triggers in K98s.
Would recommend the timney.
Yep - That's been my experience, too.
You can smooth the 2nd stage, but can't get the 1st stage take-up out.
I've used both huber and timney triggers in K98s.
Would recommend the timney.
Thanks for the input. A Timony is on the to do list but unfortunately it is not do-able now. (Already way over budget that i promised the wife i wouldnt exceed). I will try the set screw option. I was thinking of some type of shim but i like the set screw better.
Thank you
Pics to follow soon
Thank you
Pics to follow soon
In the old days, it was common practice to grind the first "hump" off the trigger. That gave a single stage pull. You can also cut down the sear but due to the play between bolt and receiver, that has to be done very carefully, or the gun can be dangerous. Stoning the engagement surfaces of the sear and cocking piece can also be done, but only polish, don't take off much as that also can make the gun dangerous because the sear won't reset.
Jim
Jim
In the case of a trigger like a Timney,the sear break takes place within the trigger block.The parts can be precisely controlled,and a light,clean safe trigger is possible.
With a military type 2 stage trigger.you have the sear engagement at the striker under the bolt.A generous sear engagement is there for safety and reliability.The two stage takes it right to the edge of break,then you can get a nice ,quality break out of the last stage.
Eliminating the two stage results in either a very long,creepy pull or a trigger that is marginal for safety and reliability.
I suggest you leave it a two stage.
Now,I have learned how to make a good second stage break.
Note all the sear surfaces are flat and square.Seems proper.But,note,in function,the sear(part) swings around a pin.The square corner is actually camming the striker to the rear in the final stage of the pull.Also note,the final stage of the pull is small,maybe .025
For expedience,I used my drill press for a fixture.I do not turn the drill press on at any stage of this.I put a close fit pin in the chuck to act as a sear pin.I lock the spindle with this pin through the sear,the sear laying flat on the drill press table,the pin providing a pivot for the sear to swing as it would in a rifle,with the sear laid flat on the table.Then I take a square fine india stone,lay it flat on the table tangent to the arc the tip of the sear describes.It does not take many strokes past the stone.You maybe remove .001 at the most.You only want to effect the portion of the sear that is the final stage of the break.You hold the stone flat on the table,and swing the sear past it to get a little stroke of the sear tip on the stone.That little sear engagement then becomes approx. on a 2 in radius.The new "band" of sear contact is only .025 or .030.
Assembled in the rifle,now the sear will not cam the striker to the rear in the final stage of pull.
It is imperative that the sear spring is strong enough to fully return the sear to full engagement if the trigger pull is not completed,every time.
Military Mauser sears are common and cheap.I suggest you get a replacement and work with it.If it comes out good,great.If not,you are only out a replacement sear.
With a military type 2 stage trigger.you have the sear engagement at the striker under the bolt.A generous sear engagement is there for safety and reliability.The two stage takes it right to the edge of break,then you can get a nice ,quality break out of the last stage.
Eliminating the two stage results in either a very long,creepy pull or a trigger that is marginal for safety and reliability.
I suggest you leave it a two stage.
Now,I have learned how to make a good second stage break.
Note all the sear surfaces are flat and square.Seems proper.But,note,in function,the sear(part) swings around a pin.The square corner is actually camming the striker to the rear in the final stage of the pull.Also note,the final stage of the pull is small,maybe .025
For expedience,I used my drill press for a fixture.I do not turn the drill press on at any stage of this.I put a close fit pin in the chuck to act as a sear pin.I lock the spindle with this pin through the sear,the sear laying flat on the drill press table,the pin providing a pivot for the sear to swing as it would in a rifle,with the sear laid flat on the table.Then I take a square fine india stone,lay it flat on the table tangent to the arc the tip of the sear describes.It does not take many strokes past the stone.You maybe remove .001 at the most.You only want to effect the portion of the sear that is the final stage of the break.You hold the stone flat on the table,and swing the sear past it to get a little stroke of the sear tip on the stone.That little sear engagement then becomes approx. on a 2 in radius.The new "band" of sear contact is only .025 or .030.
Assembled in the rifle,now the sear will not cam the striker to the rear in the final stage of pull.
It is imperative that the sear spring is strong enough to fully return the sear to full engagement if the trigger pull is not completed,every time.
Military Mauser sears are common and cheap.I suggest you get a replacement and work with it.If it comes out good,great.If not,you are only out a replacement sear.
I agree with HiBC that the 2-stage trigger is both safe and pleasant if adjusted correctly. Modern American riflemen tend to have this obsession with single-stage triggers. They will do anything to convert a 2-stage into a 1-stage even if it compromises safety. I have seen a few of those conversions that make me shake my head in disbelief.
But I am afraid I would have different take on adjusting the sear engagement. The striker should always be cammed back by the trigger pull, from beginning to end. This is positive engagement, which is essential for safety and crispness of the trigger break.
-TL
But I am afraid I would have different take on adjusting the sear engagement. The striker should always be cammed back by the trigger pull, from beginning to end. This is positive engagement, which is essential for safety and crispness of the trigger break.
-TL
tango,respectfully sharing ideas
I came across that idea late night browsing old CMP forums.I found a post by a deceased gentleman,I did not write down his name.He apparently had written a book about Springfields,etc,referred to being at "the Arsenal" and referred to "Crossman",as I recall,seeming to refer to Ned.
The topic had to do with match Springfield triggers,and he said"At the arsenal we had it wrong" then he explained about square corners vs the radius.
I have the sear break at neutral geometry,not running uphill or downhill.
It is an excellent break.I experimented some with sear springs.I tried a lighter one,it was absolutely positive in retuning a partial trigger pull to full sear engagement,but a little too light for pull.I went back to a heavier spring,which is,of course,more positive.
I suggest,if you have some spare parts around,try it out.I have a good,safe trigger.
I came across that idea late night browsing old CMP forums.I found a post by a deceased gentleman,I did not write down his name.He apparently had written a book about Springfields,etc,referred to being at "the Arsenal" and referred to "Crossman",as I recall,seeming to refer to Ned.
The topic had to do with match Springfield triggers,and he said"At the arsenal we had it wrong" then he explained about square corners vs the radius.
I have the sear break at neutral geometry,not running uphill or downhill.
It is an excellent break.I experimented some with sear springs.I tried a lighter one,it was absolutely positive in retuning a partial trigger pull to full sear engagement,but a little too light for pull.I went back to a heavier spring,which is,of course,more positive.
I suggest,if you have some spare parts around,try it out.I have a good,safe trigger.
I must be the odd man out here, but I LOVE a 2 stage trigger. We had them on the match M14s in the Marines and I really love the way they feel. Super safe too.
I use them on the Mausers I build for myself, but many customers like a replacement.
The 2nd stage on a military trigger can be made very clean and crisp. The trick is to heat and bend the nose of the trigger up so it sets the 1st stage farther back. I like the 1st stage to allow only about 1/5 of an inch of travel.
Then you stone the engagement surfaces to a point that you have about .008" of engagement and make them bright as a mirror. Turn or spin the spring down to give about 3.5 pounds of pressure on the 2nd stage.
Last, you grind a pin to go inside the spring to cause the over travel to be less than .004". The pin needs to be a good fit inside the spring so it’s not sloppy side to side.
When it is done you have a more reliable trigger than most of the after market replacements, and with no screws to ever loosen of get out of adjustment.
Such a trigger will outlast several barrels and it can still give you a 1st class sear break for your rifle.
I use them on the Mausers I build for myself, but many customers like a replacement.
The 2nd stage on a military trigger can be made very clean and crisp. The trick is to heat and bend the nose of the trigger up so it sets the 1st stage farther back. I like the 1st stage to allow only about 1/5 of an inch of travel.
Then you stone the engagement surfaces to a point that you have about .008" of engagement and make them bright as a mirror. Turn or spin the spring down to give about 3.5 pounds of pressure on the 2nd stage.
Last, you grind a pin to go inside the spring to cause the over travel to be less than .004". The pin needs to be a good fit inside the spring so it’s not sloppy side to side.
When it is done you have a more reliable trigger than most of the after market replacements, and with no screws to ever loosen of get out of adjustment.
Such a trigger will outlast several barrels and it can still give you a 1st class sear break for your rifle.
Wyosmith,
You and I, and a few others, could be the only odd men still remaining out there. But I'm afraid we are dying off slowly, at least in this country that we love. Most folks I met, especially the young ones, enjoy the high talks of taking the "slag" out of a 1911's trigger. Folks from Europe seem to have different attitude, and that's the hope.
OK, guys. Hold your fire. I'm a Yankee, one of yours, and I love America.
I totally agree with your idea of limiting the over travel. In stead of a pin, I drill and tap in the middle of the return spring housing, and put the screw that with locking nuts, so the limiter is adjustable.
Polishing, decreepy, and over travel limiting is my trick of trigger improvement.
HiBC,
I'm aware of the technique you have described. But I will only use it under very special circumstances. Here is why.
There are 3 kinds of sear engagement angles, positive, neutral, and negative. Negative is the one that the hammer/striker moves forward with the trigger pull. It is a NO-NO, even some folks on the web suggest just that. It is tragedy waiting to happen. Neutral is what your technique you have described. The striker remains stationary with the trigger pull. But it only take a slight wear for the engagement to go negative. It is right on the border line to the NO-NO zone. I only use it when I absolutely have to. It would be my own gun and I only use for winning a match that I can't lose, for instance. After the use, I will either change it back to positive or keep an close eye on it to make sure it won't go negative. I will reduce the positivity of an engagement to lighten the pull, but I insist a slight positivity. Ideally I would like to see the trigger returns by itself without the help of the return spring.
Different persons may have different opinion, but I think a highly polished, lightly lubed, and slightly positive engagement has the best characteristic. Imaging bending a glass rod versus bending a wet noodle. A glass rod will resist stiffly till it suddenly breaks, which a positive engagement resembles. A neutral engagement will feel mushy as only the light return spring is resisting. A negative is plainly a wet noodle.
Thank you very much for sharing your information on the subject, gentlemen. Good shooting and be safe.
-TL
You and I, and a few others, could be the only odd men still remaining out there. But I'm afraid we are dying off slowly, at least in this country that we love. Most folks I met, especially the young ones, enjoy the high talks of taking the "slag" out of a 1911's trigger. Folks from Europe seem to have different attitude, and that's the hope.
OK, guys. Hold your fire. I'm a Yankee, one of yours, and I love America.
I totally agree with your idea of limiting the over travel. In stead of a pin, I drill and tap in the middle of the return spring housing, and put the screw that with locking nuts, so the limiter is adjustable.
Polishing, decreepy, and over travel limiting is my trick of trigger improvement.
HiBC,
I'm aware of the technique you have described. But I will only use it under very special circumstances. Here is why.
There are 3 kinds of sear engagement angles, positive, neutral, and negative. Negative is the one that the hammer/striker moves forward with the trigger pull. It is a NO-NO, even some folks on the web suggest just that. It is tragedy waiting to happen. Neutral is what your technique you have described. The striker remains stationary with the trigger pull. But it only take a slight wear for the engagement to go negative. It is right on the border line to the NO-NO zone. I only use it when I absolutely have to. It would be my own gun and I only use for winning a match that I can't lose, for instance. After the use, I will either change it back to positive or keep an close eye on it to make sure it won't go negative. I will reduce the positivity of an engagement to lighten the pull, but I insist a slight positivity. Ideally I would like to see the trigger returns by itself without the help of the return spring.
Different persons may have different opinion, but I think a highly polished, lightly lubed, and slightly positive engagement has the best characteristic. Imaging bending a glass rod versus bending a wet noodle. A glass rod will resist stiffly till it suddenly breaks, which a positive engagement resembles. A neutral engagement will feel mushy as only the light return spring is resisting. A negative is plainly a wet noodle.
Thank you very much for sharing your information on the subject, gentlemen. Good shooting and be safe.
-TL
Thanks,Tango,for your perspective.I do find value in it.
03a3 parts are easy to find.I'm thinking a little time with some grid paper and a pencil will give me an offset center to rotate about,retaining some positive camming.
I had already experimented with using a hard Arkansas and a mill vise to stone it shiny,square,and flat.I did the same with the underside of the receiver where the bumps ride.I just was not getting what I wanted.Tried this,and I'm happy.
I am paying attention,and I am happy to learn.Thanks again.
03a3 parts are easy to find.I'm thinking a little time with some grid paper and a pencil will give me an offset center to rotate about,retaining some positive camming.
I had already experimented with using a hard Arkansas and a mill vise to stone it shiny,square,and flat.I did the same with the underside of the receiver where the bumps ride.I just was not getting what I wanted.Tried this,and I'm happy.
I am paying attention,and I am happy to learn.Thanks again.
Lots of two stage fans around, me included.
My wild guess would be that people who dislike two-stage triggers may have little or no experience with good ones, or that their formative experiences shaped their tastes.
I think I have used good single stage triggers, but my obstacle is that my finger senses travel better than pressure, so a first stage, or a lot of smooth creep, is easier for my finger and walnut sized brain to understand.
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