Mil-spec rifles

[Bob Thompson]

I,m about to purchase my first AR-15 and was wondering about all the fuss about military specifications "mil-spec" conditions. It would seem that a weapon to be used in combat would need these to operate in many different climatic conditions but one to be used for civilian use such as target shooting, Hi-power competition or just informal plinking would be able to benefit from better tolerances in headspacing, bolt lockup and so on. Do we really need sand cuts, loose chambers and loose fitting parts to operate in a good, well maintained environment? It would seem that most military type rifles purchased today would be used for the latter and benefit from better fitting tolerances.I've also seen Mil-spec semi-auto rifles shoot like tuned bolt rifles so where does that leave a perspective buyer? I will also post to AR-15 but thought I'd start here. Thanks much for your comments. Bob

 

[Gino]

Hey Bob,

I do have a couple of reasons to go with a mil-spec AR-15:

One is the chrome-lined barrel. You can get a good chrome-lined barrel that will be MOA (or close to MOA) from any of the major AR manufacturers. this barrel is MUCH tougher than a nonchrome-lined one. If they both give acceptable accuracy, why not get the one which has a longer lifespan and is easier to maintain?

The other reason is that a mil-spec chamber is a little "looser" than a nonmil-spec chamber. If you do buy any milsurp ammo, that extra room might help with reliability - both out of spec ammo and dirty conditions.

I guess the major reason I didn't look at a nonmil-spec AR (like Olympic Arms) is that I didn't need the small difference in accuracy, but the added reliability and ease of maintainance was important to me... But then, I'm not a bench rest shooter or into varmant rifles.

Just my 2 cents,
Gino

 

[owl]

Mil-spec, Sights and barrels and triggers, are the only difference between them. I like the Match grade, has to do with hitting what you are shooting at(Prairie dogs at 200+ yds)

 

[4V50 Gary]

Mil Spec has its advantage in reliability and ruggedness. It is calculated to absorb more punishment and neglect than a privately owned firearm.

In the arena of AR, Bushmaster is about as close as you'll get. Colt uses oversized trigger and hammer pins and early Colts have different size pivot pins. To a degree, this precluded parts replacment courtesy of the military surplus. Opps, wandered off topic.

Do civilians need mil-spec? Depends on whatcha want. Target shooters may firearms based on military designs; but are highly modified such that there is little commonality between theirs and GI issue. Take for instance the non-fluted bolt carrier which DPMS offers. It has not ridges cut out for the forward assist to engage. This makes it easier to clean. Definitiely not mil spec, but if you're upper doesn't have the FA, why bother? Sights on the GI (especially the A1) are rugged. You can't put a Redfield Palma sight and globe front and expect them to absorb the same degree of abuse. These are just a couple of examples.

It's fun to have a lookalike, but not really necessary. As civilians, we can take the time to give more love and care to our firearms. A soldier or marine under combat conditions must wait until it is safe to do so. Heck, I have a left handed AR upper. Not mil-spec, but still plenty of fun.




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[Jeff Thomas]

Bob, like so many other discussions, I think this one revolves around intended use. Most people buy AR's with at least some thought to having them for a very long time, and with their most critical use being personal defense. (Note I am saying most critical use - not the most likely use.) As my state trooper Gunsite instructor said, these are some of the best home defense weapons you can have (without meaning to get into a shotgun vs. AR discussion).

AR's are expensive, so most people would only have one. And, they assume if they ever need to use the firearm for defense, that one tool better be reliable. Non-mil-spec components (especially magazines, for example) have a bad reputation for being unreliable.

I just saw a friends McMillan custom rifle at the range. Bolt action. Bull barrel, and of course heavy as all get out. That rifle would be almost useless for defensive purposes. His mil-spec AR isn't as accurate. Two different tools.



[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited July 18, 1999).]

 

[Sonic Boom]

Hello guys, new to the board here.

Speaking of chromed lined barrels. What margin of improvement in accuracy can one expect to see once a chromed lined barrel is broken in?

thanks

 

[James K]

Hi Jeff Thomas,

With all due respect to your trooper instructor, he is an idiot. Does he really suggest that an apartment dweller in a city, or a guy in a townhouse, or a home-owner on a 1/2 acre lot, use an AR-15 for a house gun? He is almost as big a fool as the late Mel Tappan who had apartment dwellers buying HK91s.

Maybe a state trooper can send bullets flying through the neighborhood, tearing through walls and windows, and be immune from criticism or law suits. Maybe he can explain how he blew off 30 rounds at an imaginary intruder and riddled three kids next door. Even if the intruder is real, and dangerous, is peppering a couple of miles of homes with 5.56 bullets necessary?

He may be an arrogant jackass who is willing to kill anyone who gets in the way of his spray shooting; I think he better change his attitude before he gets in trouble big time.

Jim

 

[Jeff Thomas]

Golly Jim ... don't hold back - tell us how you really feel.

Well, I'm pretty new to all this myself, so maybe I'm gullible. But, in that class we had some Phoenix PD, a BATF fellow and a lot of experienced civilians. We discussed his perspective at length.

The argument is that a hollow point, 55 gr .223 round does not penetrate as much as people think. And, he argued that it actually penetrates much less than a handgun round. If the penetration isn't as much of a concern as we all think it might be, then the ammo capacity and 'tactical' advantages of an AR are certainly helpful.

I'm sure this could be an entire thread (and may become one now) of discussion. Someday, when I'm in the desert and have some drywall and 2x4's to spare, I'll test his theory vis-a-vis shotgun rounds.

By the way, this fellow is the literal old, experienced trooper, and not some brash young cowboy. Maybe he's wrong, but the argument certainly didn't seem impossible, and in class it sure didn't generate anywhere near the reaction it did with you.

Jim, I don't know if you have an AR, but if you do, why did you get one? Or to ask it another way, do you think civilians have any use for AR's, and if so, what?

Thanks. Regards from AZ

[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited July 18, 1999).]

 

[Destructo6]

How about keeping a magazine full of that "TAP" ammo for your house defense load?

 

[Gino]

According to what I've heard (but cannot prove), there is a varmant round that is the same round as the TAP round and is much cheaper. Don't know the name of the round though.

 

[4V50 Gary]

I have read that the penetrative power in buildings of the 55 grain .223 bullet is overrated. It is on that premise that there is talk among SWAT teams on moving from the 9mm MP5 to the M4 carbine. Sorry part is that I can't remember where I read it. Even sorrier is that I haven't done any test to verify for myself. Sounds like a good article for TFL. Hey bossman Rich, you wanna supply the dough? I've got the guns.

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt

 

[dZ]

.223 for CQB http://www.olyarms.com/223cqb.html
by R.K. Taubert
About the author: A recently retired FBI Agent with over 20 years experience in SWAT and Special Operations, he conducted extensive counter-terrorism and weapons research while in the Bureau.


Close Quarter Battle Reputation
Several interesting but inconclusive articles examining the feasibility of the .223 caliber, or 5.56x45mm round, for CQB events, such as hostage rescue and narcotics raids,
have recently been featured in a variety of firearms and police publications. However, for more than 20 years, conventional law enforcement wisdom generally held that the
.223 in any configuration was a deeply penetrating round and, therefore, totally unsuited for CQB missions in the urban environment. Partly because of this erroneous, but
long held perception, and other tactical factors, the pistol caliber submachine gun (SMG) eventually emerged as the primary shoulder "entry" weapon for the police and
military SWAT teams.

Although new revelations about the .223 are beginning to slowly circulate throughout the Special Operations community, a number of law enforcement agencies are in the
process of acquiring the next generation of "advanced" SMGs in 10mm and .40 S&W calibers. Could they and the public be better served by a .223 caliber weapons
system and at less expense? Please read on and judge for yourself.

FBI Ballistic Tests
As a result of renewed law enforcement interest in the .223 round and in the newer weapons systems developed around it, the FBI recently subjected several various .223
caliber projectiles to 13 different ballistic tests and compared their performance to that of SMG-fired hollow point pistol bullets in 9mm, 10mm, and .40 S&W calibers.

Bottom Line: In every test, with the exception of soft body armor, which none of the SMG fired rounds defeated, the .223 penetrated less on average than any of the pistol
bullets.

see also:
.223/5.56 Penetration Tests vs. .40 S&W and 12 ga. Slug http://www.olyarms.com/snoco.html

The Call-Out Bag
by Gunsite Training Center Staff
A Comparison of .223 Penetration vs. Handgun Calibers http://www.olyarms.com/gunsite.html

 

[Bob Thompson]

Seems like we got a little off tract here on Mil-spec rifles but thanks to all who replied Seems like most thoughts are on interchangeability of parts. Most mfgrs seem to follow Mil-spechs so I'm inclined toward whats available but have a standing order in with my supplier in Las Vegas for a Colt AR with flat top upper and removable carry handle. I believe I might have some wait but he says he gets about two in per month. Thanks again. Bob

 

[Art Eatman]

Granted that we're off the original thread, but for penetration of .22 centerfires: A 52-grain SP from a .22-250 from 6 feet went through about 3/4" of mobile home siding; the remains of the bullet penetrated 3/4" of hard-rock maple at a 75-degree angle (!!!) and came to rest in clothing. That's about 30 grains of bullet going through 3" of hard wood. MV of maybe 3,800 ft/sec.

 

[Jeff Thomas]

dZ, thank you for some backup for my hearsay. Interesting reading. Glad to see my instructor wasn't 'out to lunch' that day.

Regards from AZ

 

[4V50 Gary]

Thanks dZ.

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[Hiker]

Bob,
That Colt AR if it is anything like what I looked at last week at my local gunshop isn't "mil-spec". I was looking for an extractor/pin for my Bushmaster and the gunshop I was at only deals with Colt AR small parts.....I had my bolt in my pocket and we tried to make the Colt extractor work (Colt extractor alone cost $26) and it is a different beast all together. My BM/DPMS/Armalite AR's parts all swap around nicely but the new Colt stuff didn't seem to be the same animal. Food for thought if parts availability is a priority.
Hiker