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Microstamping
- Thread starter TPAW
- Start date
ScottRiqui
New member
Kind of a vague post - are you talking about microstamping bullets, brass or both? And by "work", are you asking if microstamping would provide any useful forensic information for police investigation, or are you asking if the efforts to implement microstamping are going to be successful or not?
Personally, I don't think people are going to stand for registering every box of ammo they buy, and it would just lead to a black market in handloaded ammunition.
As far as microstamping brass, there's a big potential gap in the evidence trail. All someone has to say is "I went shooting at the range - I have no idea what happened to my brass once it hit the floor."
Personally, I don't think people are going to stand for registering every box of ammo they buy, and it would just lead to a black market in handloaded ammunition.
As far as microstamping brass, there's a big potential gap in the evidence trail. All someone has to say is "I went shooting at the range - I have no idea what happened to my brass once it hit the floor."
I don't know how effective microstamping the brass will be. If however, you can put a micro stamp on the area surrounding the firing pin hole to mark the primers as they're spent, then you may have something unobtrusive, and useful for law enforcement.
Micro Stamping the brass cases is just not something that would be useful, considering reloading and all.
However, being able to microstamp the primer.....well that may have potential.
The problem is that it will cost gun enthusiasts more money per gun. You don't really think the gun manufacturers are going to absorb the costs of this technology, do you?
Micro Stamping the brass cases is just not something that would be useful, considering reloading and all.
However, being able to microstamp the primer.....well that may have potential.
The problem is that it will cost gun enthusiasts more money per gun. You don't really think the gun manufacturers are going to absorb the costs of this technology, do you?
Here ya go. No shortage of reasons why microstamping would work as well as a helicopter made of bread.
Why Microstamping and
Bullet Serialization Won’t Work
Why Microstamping and
Bullet Serialization Won’t Work
guntotin_fool
New member
SO what happens on a Glock or 1911, where the firing pin/striker can be replaced in ten seconds by someone who knows whats up? or just take a tig welder and add a blob and then regrind it down....
Microstamping looks good on paper, but like the above post mentions, is laughably easy to circumvent. What's to say the firing pin stamp doesnt get fouled up and stop imprinting the primers? Then there's the grandfathering issue - a zillion guns on the market without the microstamping features - out of production/collectibles that either couldnt be modified or which would destroy the value.
I'm generally not opposed to limited, unobstrusive, and reasonable "gun control" like carry licensing, but I hope this idea withers away.
the wikipedia article covers the issue well;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_microstamping
I'm generally not opposed to limited, unobstrusive, and reasonable "gun control" like carry licensing, but I hope this idea withers away.
the wikipedia article covers the issue well;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_microstamping
Kreyzhorse
New member
Let's assume for a moment that the technology actually exists and actually works.
First off, most people will be smart enough to use a stolen gun or a gun that dates prior to micro stamping.
Secondly, if micro stamping will lead the police to my door, why not use a revolver or a shotgun?
Finally, as the technology stands now, it would be pretty easy to render it useless with a little bit of filing.
Realistically, law abiding citizens will have guns that micro stamp their shell casings. Criminals will not. Micro stamping isn't being pushed with the realistic idea of stamping out gun crime, micro stamping is being pushed as a way to increase the costs of both guns and gun makers ability to produce guns. Micro stamping is just another way to try to driver gun makers out of business through increased cost and or hamper their ability to sell guns.
First off, most people will be smart enough to use a stolen gun or a gun that dates prior to micro stamping.
Secondly, if micro stamping will lead the police to my door, why not use a revolver or a shotgun?
Finally, as the technology stands now, it would be pretty easy to render it useless with a little bit of filing.
Realistically, law abiding citizens will have guns that micro stamp their shell casings. Criminals will not. Micro stamping isn't being pushed with the realistic idea of stamping out gun crime, micro stamping is being pushed as a way to increase the costs of both guns and gun makers ability to produce guns. Micro stamping is just another way to try to driver gun makers out of business through increased cost and or hamper their ability to sell guns.
I'm not shooting any gun that potentially leaves and identifying trail that can lead to me. Some joker could pick up my brass at the range and plant it at a a murder scene. First thing I would do, and many others would do, is replace or alter the parts associated with the stamping.....or just keep our old guns and not worry about buying any new ones.
FWIW, I haven't seen a handgun made in the last 5 years that I couldn't live without.
FWIW, I haven't seen a handgun made in the last 5 years that I couldn't live without.
FrankenMauser
New member
There is a collection of very good articles on this topic, somewhere on the web.
I wasn't able to locate it, but it presents both sides of the argument, along with an actual study performed by the company that started this all (firing pin and bolt/slide face stamping).
It turns out, they declared their own technology to be incapable of engraving over 40% of firing pins (due to type of metal, shape, size, firing pin channel, or other factors), and those that can be engraved were rendered unrecognizable after as few as 5 shots (the firing pin engraving itself, not even the primer). And it is too easy for nothing more than normal use to obliterate or fill in the stamping on bolt/slide faces in a couple hundred rounds.
My favorite article, though... showed that 30 seconds with a file obliterated enough markings to render 100% of the firing pins untraceable.
Another study of bullet, primer, and/or case serialization had even worse results. In most weapons, almost 90% of fired components had no identifiably stampings. The remaining weapons had some identifiable markings, but not enough for tracing.
And... the argument is always presented with the serialized components... What happens if some one picks up your spent shell/cartridge casing, and reloads it? What if they just pick it up to plant it at a crime scene?
I wasn't able to locate it, but it presents both sides of the argument, along with an actual study performed by the company that started this all (firing pin and bolt/slide face stamping).
It turns out, they declared their own technology to be incapable of engraving over 40% of firing pins (due to type of metal, shape, size, firing pin channel, or other factors), and those that can be engraved were rendered unrecognizable after as few as 5 shots (the firing pin engraving itself, not even the primer). And it is too easy for nothing more than normal use to obliterate or fill in the stamping on bolt/slide faces in a couple hundred rounds.
My favorite article, though... showed that 30 seconds with a file obliterated enough markings to render 100% of the firing pins untraceable.
Another study of bullet, primer, and/or case serialization had even worse results. In most weapons, almost 90% of fired components had no identifiably stampings. The remaining weapons had some identifiable markings, but not enough for tracing.
And... the argument is always presented with the serialized components... What happens if some one picks up your spent shell/cartridge casing, and reloads it? What if they just pick it up to plant it at a crime scene?
I think its a fine idea!!!
And should be applied at the earliest opportunity to government and police owned guns ONLY!
That way, when a stamped case is recovered, it instantly reduces the suspect pool to federal agents, police officers, and the military, and vice versa, when unstamped cases are found, it eliminates all current (microstamp equipped) guns. Unless, of course, the stamp has worn off.........
It won't work in practice. It barely works in theory. AND, notice that this subject is pushed by the people who have a patent on the process! No better guarantee of business success than to have the govt pass a law requiring people to buy your product!
And should be applied at the earliest opportunity to government and police owned guns ONLY!
That way, when a stamped case is recovered, it instantly reduces the suspect pool to federal agents, police officers, and the military, and vice versa, when unstamped cases are found, it eliminates all current (microstamp equipped) guns. Unless, of course, the stamp has worn off.........
It won't work in practice. It barely works in theory. AND, notice that this subject is pushed by the people who have a patent on the process! No better guarantee of business success than to have the govt pass a law requiring people to buy your product!
It won't work in practice. It barely works in theory. AND, notice that this subject is pushed by the people who have a patent on the process! No better guarantee of business success than to have the govt pass a law requiring people to buy your product!
There is the nub, right there.
Those two points.
First, for a law to be passed, and the ordinance to become official, it doesn't have to be proven that it will be of any value whatsoever. It doesn't even have to be tested. it doesn't even ahve to make sense!
We aren't talking about winning a nobel, getting a grant, becoming the next bill gates or henry ford, what we are talking about is convincing enough people that it will be a good idea that it becomes accepted as true. .
And regarding the second part, is it easy to take technology like this and make money commercially in a competitive and performance driven free economy? No. What is easy is to fool everyone that you possibly can that whatever BS you are selling is essential for their lives. If you can convince them that it is free, well, you just hit the mother lode.
So, they have convinced the bradyites, the soccer moms, and all of the other people that back it that it CAN improve their lives. Did they prove it? no. Did it even offer a good promise? no. And how did they make it free? By saying that the government would mandate it, and collect the price of the program by selling the things that cause the trouble anyway.
This is a classic scam. It is the naked pimple covered butt of the emperor parading down the street, and we are the kid who sees that the cloth of gold is a fabric of lies.
LanceOregon
Moderator
Give your reasons why microstamping will not work.
Microstamping actually WOULD WORK. The real reason why some are pushing this legislation is to make handguns and ammunition for them far more expensive, so that fewer folks would be able to afford to buy guns.
The proposed microstamping laws have nothing at all to do with either safety or helping law enforcement. Their goal is to make fewer people own guns. And if such laws were to be implemented, they would indeed have that very effect. So microstamping would clearly be a success.
Most estimates are that the price of a handgun would increase by about $200
How can one get enough different codes on a firing pin face to distinguish it from all other firing pins made and that stamping remain valid through several shots?
Next will be a law that all existing guns be sent in for stamping, even though it won’t last, and that will allow a covert registration of guns and owners.
Next will be a law that all existing guns be sent in for stamping, even though it won’t last, and that will allow a covert registration of guns and owners.
FrankenMauser
New member
Microstamping actually WOULD WORK. The real reason why some are pushing this legislation is to make handguns and ammunition for them far more expensive, so that fewer folks would be able to afford to buy guns.
Reducing the number of firearms sold is an undeniable goal of those behind microstamping.
However, it does not work. There have been many experiments and studies done on the procedures and methods for microstamping. Not a single one has shown enough success in identifying the weapon that fired the bullet/case/primer, to call the method plausible.
And... even if it did work; you're just going to trace a firearm back to the original legal owner - not the person that decided to steal it, or the guy that used it illegally.