Maybe why we are in so much trouble

[beemerb]

One possible explination.

Here's a question posed by a student to God:


Dear God, Why didn't you save the school children in Littleton,
Colorado?
Sincerely, Concerned Student Dear Concerned Student, I am not allowed in
schools.
Sincerely, God Now read below for how this has unfolded in an incredibly
short period of time:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let's see, I think it started when Madeline Murray O'Hare complained she
didn't want any prayer in our schools And we said, OK...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Then, someone said you better not read the Bible in school, the Bible
that says "thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your
neighbor as yourself."

And we said, OK...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they
misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we
might damage their self-esteem.

And we said, an expert should know what he's talking about so we won't
spank them anymore...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Then someone said teachers and principals better not discipline our
children when they misbehave.
And the school administrators said no faculty member in this school
better touch a student when they misbehave because we don't want any bad
publicity, and we surely don't want to be sued.

And we accepted their reasoning...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Then someone said, let's let our daughters have abortions if they want,
and they won't even have to tell their parents.

And we said, that's a grand idea...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Then some wise school board member said, since boys will be boys and
they're going to do it anyway, let's give our sons all the condoms they
want, so they can have all the fun they desire, and we won't have to
tell their parents they got them at school.

And we said, that's another great idea...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Then some of our top elected officials said it doesn't matter what we do
in private as long as we do our jobs.

And we said, it doesn't matter what anybody, including the President,
does in private as long as we have jobs and the economy is good...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And then someone said let's print magazines with pictures of nude women
and call it wholesome down-to-earth appreciation for the beauty of the
female body.

And we said, we have no problem with that...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And someone else took that appreciation a step further and published
pictures of nude children and then stepped further still by making them
available on the Internet.

And we said, everyone's entitled to free speech...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And the entertainment industry said, let's make TV shows and movies that
promote profanity, violence and illicit sex... And let's record music
that encourages rape, drugs, murder, suicide, and satanic themes...

And we said, it's just entertainment and it has no adverse effect and
nobody takes it seriously anyway, so go right ahead...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they
don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill
strangers, classmates or even themselves.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Undoubtedly, if we thought about it long and hard enough, we could
figure it out. I'm sure it has a great deal to do with...

"WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Pass it on if you think it has merit.

 

[John Marshall]

It does indeed have merit and should be passed on to the widest possible audience. I will do my small part and hope others will join us.

 

[BadMedicine]

I agree with only about half of those.

It says "our daughters can have abortions without telling their parents" and then it says "our boys can get free condoms at school." This is truly a catch22, do you want your daughters pregnant, or do you want your sons to not be able to get condoms, and protect themselves and others from disease and pregnancy?? I garantee you, you will not be able to "talk" the kids out of having sex...so which of the above do you want?? Distributing condoms...while not very PC is a great idea, and there's no way of calculating how much grief it has spared people.

Yes, parents should be able to "spank" their kids without SS steping in, but No teachers should not be able to. If anybody layed a hand on a kid of mine, it would come back to them and theirs ten-fold!

No we shouldn't have structured prayer in school, how will you cateer to all the different religions, or will you just pray the "right" way according to you?? But kids should be able to (and still are) to pray on their own, that's freedom of religion and you can do it anywhere, anytime.

Yes, law abiding adults who want to pose nude, and distrubute the material as art (or smut) or whatever you'll call it should be able to....that's why we have a constitution saying that we can...is freedom of the press any less important that the right to bear arms?? When you support one amendment, but not the others you are playing the hypocrit just like the anti's (and I don't mean the anti-smuts.) But no, people should take and distribute child pornagraphy, thats why there are laws against it! And if you (or whoever wrote this article) thinks they'll have better luck of tracking down and prosecuting these offenders over the internet, I'm sure the LEO's would welcome the help.

Just my 2cents.
(edited not for content, but to fix the MANY mispellings and typos that were in this rant.)

 

[echo3mike]

I've been waiting...

for a post like this to put an opinion out for discussion.

Is it just me, or has society changed dramatically since the draft ended? I mean, think about it:

item; most Americans don't really appriciate what service means. I mean, sacrificing your sense of self for a common good or greater goal. The realization that the world does not revolve around you. Learned that in the Corps.

item; Goal oriented discipline. Saw a serious lack of this undergrad, when many of my classmates and project-members would slough off and ride the coat-tails of those of us who stayed in on Saturday night to finish our part of an assignment on time. Learned that in the Corps.

item; Tolerance. Real, unabashed tolerance. Not for those groups whose agendas we have an emotional attatchment towards, but the tolerance of "yeah, he's a jacka$$, but the mission / goal is more important than my personal belief system" brand. Learned that in the Corps.

item; GUNS!!! The hard work that we put into learning everything about our weapons, from field stripping with blindfolds on to hold overs for snap-shots in a high wind, created an appriciation for the power we wielded and a respect for the power of the weapon. The knowledge that these weapons were a last resort because of the inherent finality of our decision to shoot/don't shoot.
Now it seems that guns are an instant source of power, without the respect of the discipline it take to wield that power responsibly. Again, the Corps.

item; Personal Responsibility. Some creep breaks into a house, robs the place, rapes the wife, and it's society's fault for not providing the cretin with job skill and a warm, fuzzy home life? Yeah, sure...


I would love to see them try ro bring back the draft now. Personally, I feel that military service instills a sense of duty, loyalty, and purpose. It gives the recipient a different outlook on life and what it means to be part of a greater whole.

I don't think our citzens would tolerate it. How sad.


Sorry for the tirade.
Regards,
S.

 

[Tom B]

We live in the only country in the world where by law the majority is ruled by the minority.

 

[Dangus]

I would love to see them try ro bring back the draft now. Personally, I feel that military service instills a sense of duty, loyalty, and purpose. It gives the recipient a different outlook on life and what it means to be part of a greater whole.

I don't think our citzens would tolerate it. How sad.

Damn right many of us would not tolerate it. Anyone comes to my door trying to force me to be the government's slave you bet your ass I'll fill them full of lead.

I have tons of respect for the military, but I WILL NOT be drafted! The draft is completely evil and the enemy of the concept of haebeus corpus.

You think government power is being abused now? Just imagine the potential for abuse when they own every male of this nation for a brief period of time.

Join the military if you want, protect this country and earn my utmost respect, but try to force me to join the military and you'd better send someone else to my doorstep trying to make me.

 

[K80Geoff]

Draft

Hey Dangus!

Maybee learning what it is like to be a "slave" (your words, not mine) for a couple years will give youngsters an appreciation of what it means to be free and live in the U S.

Maybe it is just me, but the guys who went through the military when we did have a draft are the people who appreciate this country and believe in it.

Just think, who was the only president not to serve in the Military. Yep he had a real sense of morality and duty to country, didn't he.

I vote for universal military training, for men and women!

Geoff Ross

I was military when military wasn't cool.

 

[Bruegger]

privilege vs. obligation

I'm a Marine from a military family (at least four consecutive generations) who thinks the draft - especially in peacetime - is a crappy idea. Dangus is right: it's just another form of slavery when someone forces you at gunpoint to work for them, whether the government does it or a private citizen. Maybe "indentured servitude" is a better term for it.

Saying that it does a person good by teaching them discipline is merely to state "the end justifies the means." If you are committed to the principle of individual rights, it's hard to reconcile this with a draft. Our country has slipped far enough into big government collectivism that we don't need a European-style program of regimentation. Kids are already sufficiently brainwashed in the government schools that they don't need to get further indoctrination.

Mr. Clinton isn't the only President who didn't serve in the military. Many other Presidents didn't either, for example Jefferson, both Adamses, Lincoln, Coolidge, FDR, etc.

Serving your country is a honor and privilege - the best years of my life were during my service in the Corps, and if you didn't serve, you missed out - but no one should be forced to serve unwillingly.

Beemerb - I agree with your post. However, a lot (all?) of the problems here can be fixed at home. It is a **parent's** responsibility to raise decent, law-abiding children. If parents didn't delegate the job of raising of their children to an athiestic government indocrination center, they wouldn't have most of these complaints. Parents, not the government, have an obligation to their Creator to educate their children and raise them up in the fear and admonition of the LORD. "Hear O Israel, the LORD your God: The LORD is one. You shall love the LORD with all your heart and mind and strength. And these words... **you** shall teach to your children..."

Semper fi

 

[cynic]

Should mandatory U.S. military service occur, the things I would most look forward to my sons learning would be diversity training, sensitivity training, and learning how to pee only while sitting down.

 

[Tamara]

I agree with Mr. Heinlein:

I also think there are prices too high to pay to save the United States. Conscription is one of them. Conscription is slavery, and I don't think that any people or nation has a right to save itself at the price of slavery for anyone, no matter what name it is called. We have had the draft for twenty years now; I think this is shameful. If a country can't save itself through the volunteer service of its own free people, then I say: Let the damned thing go down the drain!

One thing rarely mentioned about the great drafts of WWI and WWII is that they were almost necessary to keep too many men from volunteering all at once...

 

[BadMedicine]

huh... I think there is a faulty link (something about the draft) pointing to this thread. the topic said nothing of the draft, but every post after mine has been soley focused on it...then tamara quoted a guy who had not even talked on this thread yet...something is definately fishy.

 

[Tamara]

BadMedicine,

Mr. Heinlein hasn't posted on this thread because he's dead.

 

[pax]

Tamara

Heinlein is no more dead than Hemingway is.

pax

Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors -- and miss. -- Robert A. Heinlein

 

[Andrewh]

I do not agree with any of those statements above. It is passing on the responsiblities of parents to the PC people, and the government. I am only 30, and remmember the paddle hung on my principals wall as a kid all the way through high school. I remember being paddled by my parents as a child.
I also remember all the bad things in life being availible to the public even then. Playboy is not new to my generation. MTV has been there since the 80's. We are not the first to have pornography, whether the access is easier or not. I do believe in free speach.I believe no matter how vile I think what you have to say is, I will defend the right for you to say it 100 percent, and I expect you to do the same for me. I believe in responsiblity for your actions period end of sentence. So to echo3mike I would like to add, not only is it not our fault he doesn't have a job, but we should not expect others to protect us in our own homes. It is our responsiblity.
As to military service. I believe in Heinlein's ideas on how the government should only allow those that have served to run for office an vote. But that will never happen. That being said, no one should ever be forced to serve. Perhapes all of you are right. Those in my generation and the ones after, have forgotten pride in being a US citizen. Perhapes you can say it is the job market, and who in their right minds would join to make less than 20 grand a year, when they could walk into a job making twice that with some computer training. I don't know. I know that I did volunteer, and would do it again, but that was me. I know lots of people it isn't right for, and I surely would not want them watching my back when the shtf.
Again, it is not the governments fault, or even the PC peoples fault the kids of today have turned out like they have. Those of you that believe so, are not taking responsiblility for what you teach your children. I always like to go back to school shootings. How does your kid buy a firearm and you not know they shelled out 500 bucks. How do children get that kind of leeway in the world today. I had to explain I wanted gas for my car, and lunch money for the 20 bucks I got a week, even though I made it myself at sixflags. I didn't get to spend it willy nilly. Even when I did have a lot of money built up. I guarantee my father would have noticed 500 bucks being spent. Do parents not see that? Is it that different today, that you can say you don't need to watch your kids that much closer than just 15 years ago?

 

[beemerb]

For Alls information

I did not write the first post but passed it along.I felt it is worth reading.I allso agree with Heinlein that to become a citizen you must do service for your country.For those who haven't read "Starship Troopers".Now I said read the book not go see the movie.Freedom is an earned right and I see many that injoy it that haven't earned it and take it for granted.Draft?No comment cause I don't want to get into an augument about it.In my generation it was the norm.

 

[George Hill]

This thread may indeed explain why we are in so much trouble...

 

[gitarmac]

It's the shrinks.

We are in so much trouble because of the psycobabble spouted by the shrinks. We go along with it because it eliminates our responsibility for our actions, therefore the consequenses when things go bad. Everything is a "disease" and "genetic" and we cannot help ourselves.

Beemerb seems to imply this by suggestion that the only way to learn about God or spirituality is through the schools (government), parents have no influence in teaching thier children religion. I find it odd that even around here with a church of every denomination on every corner people still think that if they don't have "prayer in school" they will be doomed to Godlessness. The way the government screw everything up I would be concerned they would screw that up also.

I read in the grocery store the other day and article about schoolyard bullies and it ended by saying parents cannot do anything about the problem and such and such percent of the bullies are "depressed". Typical psycobabble.

One pschologist though wrote a book called "Excape from Freedom". His name was Eric Fromme. It's been decades since I read the book but basically it implys that people do not want the burden of responsibility that comes with freedom so they create other powers to effectivly eliminate thier freedom. That's how tyrants come to power, like Hitler for instance. Do you think he did it all himself? Do you really believe that whole country was so stupid and niave they did not know what was going on? Somebody wrote a book recently that suggested most Germans participated in the Holocost. Not to be picking on Germany, it can and does happen anywhere. For the most part people are just sheep waiting to be led. All a charsmatic person has to do is target the weak ones first and soon the rest will follow.

I am reminded of that skier that was just sentenced in killing a fellow. As someone else put it: "someone must pay".

 

[Jeff White]

Just to set the record straight

Bruegger,

Lincoln did serve in the military. He was in the militia during the Blackhawk Indian War in Illinois and was elected captain of his company. This unit still exists in the Illinois Army National Guard. There is still one (2d) battalion of the 130th Infantry in the US force structure. Of course the unit was not the 130th Infantry then, the lineage of that unit goes back to those days. The 130th Infantry had another famous commander in those days, one US Grant.

I wa probably in the last group of people who actually had to register with their local selective service board and carry a draft card. I watched as the volunteer military had it's teething pains. I read a couple of books at the time predicting dire things for our country after the end of the draft. I was young then and scoffed at such ideas. Looking back, with the clarity of 20/20 hindsight, I can see that most of what they predicted has come to pass.

I think universal military service was one of the things that helped us have a somewhat "class less" society in those days. It was the great equalizer. Men of all backgrounds, sweated togehter, froze together and sometimes bled and died together. This gave them bonds that those who haven't served can never understand. Sure there were inequities in the system, people of wealth and priviledge did get out of serving, but until the draft was gone for a generation, none of those who refused to serve really tried to succeed in public office. The military was a common reference. People who had notheing else in common, usually had that. The gas station attendent and the bank president usually both had a coomon reference, their service.

When I joined the Army, my grandfather (who was declared essential to the war effort in his civilian job and was not permitted to be drafted or enlist) told me how he wished he'd have been allowed to go. He showed me the certificates he received from the war office for keeping production up that he still had on the wall in his office at the shoe factory. I really think that those certificates meant more to him then any other accomplishment in his life, and he had many other accomplishments.

I'll have to agree that the downhill slope got a lot steeper when we ended the draft.

Jeff

 

[justice4all]

Get rid of public education, then let each school, and the parents of the kids who attend it, decide whether or not there should be prayer or corporal punishment or sex ed. Or does that make too much sense?

Being FORCED to fight for "FREEDOM"? There will never need to be a draft to defend the USA. There could never have been a Vietnam War without conscription.

There are problems in America, there always have been, but requiring people to pray or fight will not solve them.

beemerb writes, "Freedom is an earned right and I see many that injoy it that haven't earned it and take it for granted." I respectfully disagree. We are endowed with certain inalienable writes by virtue of our very existence. We are born free. By doing nothing, we might lose it politically, but not metaphysically. It would be very dangerous if we started thinking that certain people have not earned the right to be free. Earned citizenship is another concept, but again, I think this idea would be abused.

 

[Art Eatman]

While I agree with the thrust of Oatka's opening post, I also am one who believes that the majority of learning of morality, conscience, etc., should be inculcated at home. I have never understood why it is considered difficult to instill such notions into one's kids. For that matter, why it is considered difficult to control what TV is watched, whether or not homework is done, and teaching that helping with household chores is a normal duty.

Quien sabe? Maybe the "Don't be judgemental" psychobabble is just way too prevalent. It darned sure wasn't for me as a kid, nor for my son--and he seems to have turned out okay.

As far as the draft, I got my greetings from Ike in November of 1953. Since it was part of the world I lived in, I wasn't particularly upset. In my case, it was a legitimate way to "drop out" and do some growing up that I badly needed. I never felt that I was any sort of slave--not at all. I re-upped for the chance to have two years in Gay Paree--which beat the heck out of paying for it myself at age 71, like my grandfather did.

There is one aspect of the draft which too many don't realize is very important--at least to me. It does create a Citizen Army. It does mean that the vast majority of those serving owe their first loyalties to the nation as a whole and not just to their unit commanders. IMO, it means that when folks get out, there will be a sense of respect for the people in the armed services, but that certain amount of distrust of a "Standing Army" that worried our Founders. I think it bad to have a military structure whose members can become divorced from regarding themselves as truly a part of our society.

Now: If we cannot get enough volunteers in a time of need, and true "conscription" is actually needed to create the numbers in uniform, then, yes, Heinlein was correct: The nation ain't worth saving.

My $0.02,

Art