I have a S&W model 442. A great little revolver, high quality and amazingly concealable in my Kramer front pocket holster. I understand that the 125 grain Nyclad load is a good one and I practice with 130 grain military ammo. My problem is that my ability to achieve results similar to those I can manage with semi-automatics is bad. Does anyone have any tips?
Mastering the J-Frame
- Thread starter Sierra
- Start date
This might sound too simple to be helpful, but it's what has worked for me with more than one j-frame: concentrate on your trigger pull. I've found that the poor leverage afforded by the short j-frame grip frame seems to make the trigger pull feel heavier than it is - and I noticed that my snubby shots were doing the types of things that they often do out of a gun with a heavy trigger pull. Paying a lot more attention to my trigger squeeze helped out quite a bit.
Might not be your problem, but sure has helped with my DAO 940, which was difficult even though it had the trigger smoothed up by the previous owner.
And, of course, practice, practice, practice. A nice thing about your .38 is that it's so unbelievably easy to reload sweet loads for. My 9 is similarly great because the ammo is so darn cheap at Wally World. If you run a thousand rounds through it in the next couple of months, you'll be doing great!
Might not be your problem, but sure has helped with my DAO 940, which was difficult even though it had the trigger smoothed up by the previous owner.
And, of course, practice, practice, practice. A nice thing about your .38 is that it's so unbelievably easy to reload sweet loads for. My 9 is similarly great because the ammo is so darn cheap at Wally World. If you run a thousand rounds through it in the next couple of months, you'll be doing great!
Have a smith do a trigger job or do a spring job and polish the rebound slide (conventional wisdom around here is that you should stay far away from the sears unless you really know what you are doing). The trigger out of the box is quite stiff. I found that my accuracy has improved once I did a trigger job. I also had a gunsmith put an orange insert in my front site -- if I had to do it all over again, I'd simply paint the ramp orange (cheaper and just as effective, IMHO).
Nevertheless, it's still a demanding little gun. It has a long trigger pull, relatively small front site, and essentially no rear site. There's no way I'm every going to be as good with my 642 as I am with my Kimber Compact. Unfortunately, I can't fit my Kimber Compact in my pants pocket.
M1911
Nevertheless, it's still a demanding little gun. It has a long trigger pull, relatively small front site, and essentially no rear site. There's no way I'm every going to be as good with my 642 as I am with my Kimber Compact. Unfortunately, I can't fit my Kimber Compact in my pants pocket.
M1911
YosemiteSam357
New member
Same way you get to Carnegie Hall: Practice, my boy, practice. 
Seriously, it does require a lot of work to be accurate with the J-frame. After finding I wasn't very accurate with mine, I spent thousands of dollars in the last few years getting into semi auto carry guns. Now that I'm shooting better in general, I can pick up the J-frame and still be amazed at what I can miss with it. But if I spend a full range session practicing with it, my scores go up and my group sizes go down. It's a tough gun to be accurate with.
-- Sam
Seriously, it does require a lot of work to be accurate with the J-frame. After finding I wasn't very accurate with mine, I spent thousands of dollars in the last few years getting into semi auto carry guns. Now that I'm shooting better in general, I can pick up the J-frame and still be amazed at what I can miss with it. But if I spend a full range session practicing with it, my scores go up and my group sizes go down. It's a tough gun to be accurate with.
-- Sam
Brian Williams
New member
If you want to see how accurate you are with your J frame get two boxes of147 gr lwc 38spec loads and shoot half of them single action and the other half double action. you will be suprised at how accurate your J frame really is.
I shoot 158 gr LSWC with 3.5 gr bullseye. I can keep 5 shots inside 5 inches with some fast DA shooting at 10 yds.
this is a wimpy load but I would not want to stand in front and catch the bullets.
I shoot 158 gr LSWC with 3.5 gr bullseye. I can keep 5 shots inside 5 inches with some fast DA shooting at 10 yds.
this is a wimpy load but I would not want to stand in front and catch the bullets.
don't shoot it's me
New member
For real accurate firing out of my 442 I learned to pull the trigger to the rear until the cylinder stops rotating, then line up your sights and gently squeeze it the rest of the way...almost like single action firing .....
Will Beararms
New member
I second don't shoot. With My S&W Model 60 and Taurus 605, I attain the sight picture, then pull the trigger back to the point where the hammer almost falls, re-align the sights and then fire the revolver. After alot of practice you can get very fast with this method.
Another thing I do with any handgun when learning it, is just stand in front of the target and fire the weapon. Forget about where the shots end up just learn the trigger and get used to the recoil.
Another thing I do with any handgun when learning it, is just stand in front of the target and fire the weapon. Forget about where the shots end up just learn the trigger and get used to the recoil.
VictorLouis
New member
The method which DSIM and WB are referring to was advocated by Ed McGivern decades ago. It's also known as staging the trigger. It works much better with Smith's larger-frame revos, but is not impossible with the J-frame, as they pointed out.
If you are not familiar with it, try the old 'ball-and-dummy' drill. You insert some live rounds in with empty cases, then spin the cylinder and close it. This way, you have no idea when you pull the trigger if you will hit a live or dead round. Goes a long way toward helping to cure flinch.
If you are not familiar with it, try the old 'ball-and-dummy' drill. You insert some live rounds in with empty cases, then spin the cylinder and close it. This way, you have no idea when you pull the trigger if you will hit a live or dead round. Goes a long way toward helping to cure flinch.
dairycreek
New member
I have a 442 too!
And, I like it a lot. But, you just don't get to be competent with any J frame unless you practice, practice, practice. I started up close until I could shoot a decent group. Kept experimenting until I was satisfied and then I moved back. After much practice I am now competent. Notice I didn't say I was a real whiz bang or, for that matter, even very good. But, I am competent with the 442. Out to 15 yards bullets go where I want them to go. They are guns at which one has to work. But the results are so satisfying. Good shooting
And, I like it a lot. But, you just don't get to be competent with any J frame unless you practice, practice, practice. I started up close until I could shoot a decent group. Kept experimenting until I was satisfied and then I moved back. After much practice I am now competent. Notice I didn't say I was a real whiz bang or, for that matter, even very good. But, I am competent with the 442. Out to 15 yards bullets go where I want them to go. They are guns at which one has to work. But the results are so satisfying. Good shooting
As has been mentioned, Practice. Remember that with that short sight radius, your mistakes are amplified. It takes attention to detail to shoot these small guns accurately. I bought a S&W Model 60 about 15 years ago. At the time, I only owned a couple guns, so I shot it all the time. At least once a week. Back then I would also go shooting and stay there for most of the day. I became very good with my little J-Frame. I used to love to run into some clown that was shooting off his mouth about how inaccurate short barreled guns were. I would take them to school. Now I might, repeat might, shoot my Model 60 once a year. So now, I am pretty much right back at the beginning of the learning curve. Again, practice and attention to detail.
My main defense gun is a .38Spl "J-sized" snubbie, a late '70s Charter Undercover. *Wonderful* gun; later editions of the design under other companies had spotty QC, so I don't recommend these unless you're willing to really study up on 'em.
Anyways.
First thing, I recommend doing some "sandbag shooting" in SA that'll allow you to establish just what the gun can do separate from your skills. Do that fairly early because once you're convinced that the gun can do it's job, it's a strong confidence booster that you can bring your skills up to meet the gun.
This step will also tell you where the sights are printing. If the front sight is "just as fat" as the rear sight channel, it's possible to polish one side or the other to "center up" the groups and make the front sight overall a bit thinner, which is often a good thing. If the front sight is too tall, file it some.
Once the sights are fixed up, paint 'em. I like neon orange front, white rear. Fingernail polish works as well as anything else. Not macho. Who cares .
Grips: I have a theory that if you're shooting from a Weaver, you can achieve a grip whereby your strong hand forearm lines up perfectly behind the frame/barrel of the gun, behind it versus to one side, and forming one continuous line. To do that, you need a specific grip diameter that matches your hand size.
Other advantages to that alignment: if you have to shoot one-handed, the alignment will be the same. Better, if you have to shoot at close range with no sights, you end up using your forearm alignment as a "large crude point-firing sight" so long as your wrist is rigidly locked. It won't be all THAT accurate if you're not a natural point shooter, but close-up it should be better than flex-wristed point shooting.
In my case, I'm fairly big, and use Packmeyr rubber grips that cover the backstrap - the Compac grip, which is also available for Taurus/S&W/others. If you have smaller hands, a smaller grip might work better.
Finally, practice.
What can you get out of all this?
I was able to do some outdoor shooting not too long ago, 50 yards at a torso-diameter metal trash can. I was able to hit it five for five with the aforementioned snubby, firing SA. OK, not THAT impressive, but it gives one strong confidence if dealing with a closer-range threat.
Anyways.
First thing, I recommend doing some "sandbag shooting" in SA that'll allow you to establish just what the gun can do separate from your skills. Do that fairly early because once you're convinced that the gun can do it's job, it's a strong confidence booster that you can bring your skills up to meet the gun.
This step will also tell you where the sights are printing. If the front sight is "just as fat" as the rear sight channel, it's possible to polish one side or the other to "center up" the groups and make the front sight overall a bit thinner, which is often a good thing. If the front sight is too tall, file it some.
Once the sights are fixed up, paint 'em. I like neon orange front, white rear. Fingernail polish works as well as anything else
. Not macho. Who cares .Grips: I have a theory that if you're shooting from a Weaver, you can achieve a grip whereby your strong hand forearm lines up perfectly behind the frame/barrel of the gun, behind it versus to one side, and forming one continuous line. To do that, you need a specific grip diameter that matches your hand size.
Other advantages to that alignment: if you have to shoot one-handed, the alignment will be the same. Better, if you have to shoot at close range with no sights, you end up using your forearm alignment as a "large crude point-firing sight" so long as your wrist is rigidly locked. It won't be all THAT accurate if you're not a natural point shooter, but close-up it should be better than flex-wristed point shooting.
In my case, I'm fairly big, and use Packmeyr rubber grips that cover the backstrap - the Compac grip, which is also available for Taurus/S&W/others. If you have smaller hands, a smaller grip might work better.
Finally, practice
.What can you get out of all this?
I was able to do some outdoor shooting not too long ago, 50 yards at a torso-diameter metal trash can. I was able to hit it five for five with the aforementioned snubby, firing SA. OK, not THAT impressive, but it gives one strong confidence if dealing with a closer-range threat.
The J`s were made for close in self defense and concealability, not target shooting. If you practice a lot with it and really put in the effort, you`ll surprise a lot of semi shooters who`ve been taught (wrongly) that little wheel guns are useless.
For many years J frames and Colt D/S` were standard in most police dep`ts in this country for off duty carry. On duty plainclothes police carried them as their primary gun.
About 25 years ago a guy I worked with bought a Model 60. It was a tough gun to shoot. Much tougher than my D/S but with practice it can be done.
Changing over to bigger grips may help but then you lose the concealment advantage. A Tyler T Grip doesn`t add to the bulk of the gun.
For many years J frames and Colt D/S` were standard in most police dep`ts in this country for off duty carry. On duty plainclothes police carried them as their primary gun.
About 25 years ago a guy I worked with bought a Model 60. It was a tough gun to shoot. Much tougher than my D/S but with practice it can be done.
Changing over to bigger grips may help but then you lose the concealment advantage. A Tyler T Grip doesn`t add to the bulk of the gun.
444 made a key observation: The short sight radius magnifies errors. The lil guns are potentially as accurate as anything out there. The problem is, the shooter needs to develop the skills to bring out the inherent accuracy and a lot of folks don't want to put in the homework.
Good advice from everybody!
Good advice from everybody!
YosemiteSam357
New member
I qualified for my CCW with my Model 60. I'd done a lot of plinking with it, yet was absolutely amazed at how bad a shot I was in rapid fire. All over the full-sized torso target, but at least in the black.
I have since done what several previous posters have stated, working at shorter distances until I could hit where I wanted consistently. Start real short, like 7 yards.
I also found that I can get a more accurate sight picture by looking "over" the sights, sort of down on them, not lined up from the back like one normally does. It's hard to describe, but I just find the gun more accurate when aimed this way.
Painting the front site day-glo orange helped a bit, too.
-- Sam
I have since done what several previous posters have stated, working at shorter distances until I could hit where I wanted consistently. Start real short, like 7 yards.
I also found that I can get a more accurate sight picture by looking "over" the sights, sort of down on them, not lined up from the back like one normally does. It's hard to describe, but I just find the gun more accurate when aimed this way.
Painting the front site day-glo orange helped a bit, too.
-- Sam
YosemiteSam357
New member
Very likely yes, but with a huge number of variables.
I wouldn't do it, myself. I don't trust lawyers.
-- Sam
I wouldn't do it, myself. I don't trust lawyers.
-- Sam
I'm a lawyer who just got done serving on a civil jury - believe me, there's no way to say for sure.
The obvious response to a claim that the trigger was negligent would be that the action job was done to enhance accuracy, and thereby actually made the gun more safe.
But there's no crystal ball that will allow anyone here to say whether that response would fly.
P.S. - I don't trust Californians!
The obvious response to a claim that the trigger was negligent would be that the action job was done to enhance accuracy, and thereby actually made the gun more safe.
But there's no crystal ball that will allow anyone here to say whether that response would fly.
P.S. - I don't trust Californians!