Massad Ayoob information

[rickyjames]

Massad Ayoob, I recognize the name, I have read some of his articles, he is a noted author, speaker, instructor teaching self defense and I believe is or has been a police officer.

My question I quess is has he ever shot anyone? How many people has he shot? How much actual real life experience does he really have or is he just teaching theory? I tried doing a little research but I didn't find anything so I really don't know.

I know this sounds very macabre but I just heard him mentioned on the Outdoor Channel and it got me thinking how much stock people put in information simply because of name recognition. Basically, they say he is an expert so he must be an expert. I have seen on TV the worlds fastest draw, the worlds best shotgunner, the worlds best competition shooter. All are entertaining, all have something to teach, all can make you a better shooter but who actually prepares you for that split second when you feel you need take someones life in self defense? The legal turmoil afterward and the lifetime that follows? Who prepares you for that?

My father in law was a ww2 combat vet. Later in life he was also a legal licenced CC gun owner. He practiced only occasionally but he carried his little S&W 38 snub nose daily. He was an insurance salesman and sometimes he had fair amounts of cash and checks with him. One day he was in a public business when 2 armed robbers came in to rob the place. They also were robbing the patrons. The one thing I remember him saying is he didn't care if they took his money but he was very afraid if they found his gun that he might get shot. Although he said it seemed like time had stopped everthing happened in split seconds, he drew his gun and fired on both robbers hitting them eventually they both died from their wounds.

That was just the start of the nightmare. His gun was taken away but eventually returned months later. He was taken to the police station where he was questioned for hours, treated like he was the bad guy. Luckily there were more than a dozen witnesses there in his favor and he was eventually let go. He later faced civil lawsuits from the robbers families for wrongful death that cost him dearly to defend against.

He seldom spoke of the event afterward. He was bitter about how he was treated, the legal system that allowed him to be sued afterward even tho the suits eventually failed. Although he knew he did the right thing he did carry the guilt of taking these 2 lives to his grave.

So as you can see self defense is much more than being in danger, being a good shot and being right. It is the aftermath these "gun" experts should be preparing you for as well as the preperation.

 

[The Tourist]

I don't think a "body count" is necessary to be an expert. I believe that Chuck Taylor has shot six people. But I still think Ayoob's knowledge of firearms and testimony in actual court cases is far superior.

I'm a good sharpener. I've never killed anyone with a meat cleaver.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

My question I quess is has he ever shot anyone? How many people has he shot? How much actual real life experience does he really have or is he just teaching theory? I tried doing a little research but I didn't find anything so I really don't know.

I know this sounds very macabre but I just heard him mentioned on the Outdoor Channel and it got me thinking how much stock people put in information simply because of name recognition.

What seems "macabre" to me is associating the act of shooting people with being an "expert" on something.

It is the aftermath these "gun" experts should be preparing you for as well as the preperation.

First, if you think that Mass Ayoob doesn't cover that material, you've not read much of his material here or elsewhere.

Second, every body has to "specialize" in something. If everyone specialized in the legal aftermath then who would train us to survive long enough to get there!?

Third, since he's a regular contributor on TFL, he may well be along shortly to clarify your information first-hand like.

 

[noyes]

Just marking a spot... this could turn informative.

Mas Ayoob (Massad Ayoob) is a member of TFL.

Link , post #10

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=391288&highlight=massad+ayoob+member

 

[OldMarksman]

My question I quess is has he ever shot anyone? How many people has he shot? How much actual real life experience does he really have or is he just teaching theory? I tried doing a little research but I didn't find anything so I really don't know.

Reflect a moment on the following: if you found a police officer who had actually shot one, two, or three people, do you think that that experience would provide a sound basis for teaching others? I don't.

No, training requires a knowledge of all that can happen and of what is likely to be successful in responding to what does happen. The are far, far more variables to be taken into account than there have been actual shootings by potential instructors. So--one has to accumulate all of the relevant information about real world experience, add to that simulations and non-lethal force-on-force practice and role playing, train with that, and continually update as new information--resulting from real or simulated experience--becomes available.

By the way, that is exactly how air combat training is taught today. It's the only way to do it.

So as you can see self defense is much more than being in danger, being a good shot and being right. It is the aftermath these "gun" experts should be preparing you for as well as the preperation.

A great deal of what Mas teaches has to do with the aftermath, and yes, he is an expert when it comes to that subject.

 

[ScottRiqui]

OldMarksman,

I'm glad you mentioned air combat training, because that's the point I was going to make. I'm a Naval flight officer, and if actual combat experience were a prerequisite for being a tactics instructor, we would hardly have any instructors. Interesting fact - during the 30 years that the AIM-54 "Phoenix" missile was in the U.S. inventory, we never had a single combat kill with it. That didn't stop us from developing tactics for using it, and firing plenty of them in practice.

Likewise, I did a tour as the Air Defense Officer on an aircraft carrier. We did plenty of practice with the CIWS, RAM, and NATO Sea Sparrow, even though the actual cases of those weapons being used in combat could (thankfully) be counted on one hand.

 

[Silent Bob]

While a bit dated now, his book In the Gravest Extreme was the catalyst that got me from seeing guns as mostly a Saturday afternoon exercise in shooting empty beer cans in my friend's pasture to defensive weapons and everything that entails.

One of my drill sergeants in the Army was not a veteran of any war, but I doubt that discounted the value of any of his instruction (he screamed just as loud and made threatening arm gestures just as effectively as the two that did serve in Desert Storm)

 

[CWPinSC]

Actually, don't we train so we DON'T have to "shoot people"?

 

[DRice.72]

Since we are talking about Mr. Ayoob. Has anyone read his book "Gun Proof your Children"?

 

[Musketeer]

His writings which I have followed have both helped to keep me alive in the incident where I did have to draw (did not shoot though) and gotten me situations that could have gotten deadly if not handled right.

I do not believe he has ever shot someone. I also do not believe that is the critical factor in being an expert here. There are plenty of Airforce missile men who were experts in launching ICBMs but never did so after all.

If you do want someone who has been there and was an instructor for first hand writings then look up Jim Cirillo's book. You can gleam excellent tactical insight from it in conjunction with all of the good advice you can get from Ayoob. The latter goes much further into the legal aspects of lethal force and been in more courtrooms than any of us probably ever will on the subject.

 

[rickyjames]

I guess the old adage it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 is really all these experts can prepare you for. After the deed your pretty much on your own they won't come to your defense just because you bought their book. Practice is good for accuracy, be familiar with your weapon so you can use it in an instant if needed. Tactics are fine but I believe real life situations seldom resemble the fantasys you train for and are over before tactics can be remembered or employed. No one can really prepare you for the aftermath.

Sure I would do what I need to do to protect my life or my loved ones. Experts address these issues everyday as if they were some video game. One thing I learned from my father in laws experience is be prepared that there will be an aftermath. It may be costly and not just in money.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

If you take Ayoob's course - he will come to your defense as an expert. How about that?

Thinking about the issue of shooting someone. It takes numerous repetitions to ingrain a motor/perceptual skill. Shooting one person isn't really enough repetitions to make you an unconsciously comptent warrior.

So, is an instructor like Mas worthwhile versus:

The Diallo cops
The officer who just shot some old deaf guy with a water bottle.
The Swat team that went to the wrong house and shot a granny.
Etc.

The point about simulation in air to air combat is well taken. How many of our current pilots have shot down an enemy plane?

I've read quite a bit of the training literature on emergency responses and it is clear that many simulation reps are the way to go - given the real deal happens so rarely.

 

[rickyjames]

BTW, I only bring up Mr. Ayoob because he was mentioned on TV and I have read a little of his stuff and he is respected in his field, not to denigrate him or his teachings. Almost anyone I have read that professes to teach armed self defense mirrors each others views and for most it is just theory.

My point is not who teaches the best self defense or tactics but to bring attention to the fact that there is much more than pulling a trigger and walking away involed in self defense. I have seen the effects of killing 2 men in self defense thru my father in law and I believe these issues are as important to address as the preperation it takes to survive.

 

[ban-hater]

I dig his real-life accounts in American Handgunner. Good reads. Lost personal defense TV, which sucked because he brings up a lot of good stuff.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

There are good books on shooting aftermaths:

Into the Kill Zone - Klinger
Deadly Force Encounters - Artwhol, et al.

for example.

War stories are nice but I'm not sure that without theory they are the end all and be all. Folks who took incidents and came up with theory like the OODA loop, air combat theory, etc. made real progress.

Studies of the fear response have led to modern FOF techniques.

The best courses are much more than 'pulling a trigger and walking away'. Maybe some clown teaches that, but I know (as do many of us) the top of the line instructors and it's not like that.

 

[DRice.72]

Looks like I have found some more reading to do!

Glenn, you might mention your essay on "Being an Academic Shooter". Its a nice read about the development of the mindset of not just self defense, but shooting in general. At least I thought so. Just MHO.

 

[NWPilgrim]

You need to actually read or get instruction from some of these experts. All that I know of do exactly what you describe: instruct not just on gun handling, but mindset and legal ramifications. You aren't the first to think of it.

I would judge an expert by the results of his instruction or advice, whether he was in combat or not. Sure we would all like to know an expert has "seen the elephant", but that doesn't require shooting people. I would rather want to know how his skill helped him avoid or defuse situations. This was one of Jeff Cooper's emphasis: mental awareness to situations and potential dangers.

If you have ever been in a dangerous situation or confrontation then when you read Ayoob, Cooper or other experts their descriptions and advice will either ring true or phony. For me, Ayoob describes the scenarios, reactions, and aftermath about as well as anyone I've come across. He doesn't need to tell me whether he has been in fights because his writing confirms its truth based on my experience. Therefore, I trust what what he advises until I have evidence otherwise. Same with many other experts.

Your father in law's experience is exactly why these experts are out there trying to educate us on the appropriate legal response to threats and what to expect in the aftermath. Their success is not built on fantasy, but real world experience and being students of the craft.

 

[kraigwy]

My question I quess is has he ever shot anyone? How many people has he shot? How much actual real life experience does he really have or is he just teaching theory?

Ummm...................I think thats kind of silly.

I'll not discuss Mr Ayoob or any other Gun Writer..............but think about it.

Does shooting bad guys that you can't see (for the most part) in a bamboo thicket with a M16A1 on full auto make you an expert on the M195 5.56? Does slogging through rice paddies, dragging a rifle while keeping it working make you an expert on the function of the M16A1?

Does a scared poopless kid in a dark slimmy tunnel blasting away with a 1911a1 at a shaddow make him an expert on the 1911a1 and 45 ACP?

I think not in my opinion. However 40 years of studying guns and shooting, attending serveral Shooting and Coaching clinics, 30 plus years of Coaching and managing rifle/pistol teams help...............as does building rifles for targets and hunting.............as does attending schools on building match rifles and pistols................as does attending autopsies as a CSI.............as does studying everything you can get your hands on.

Shooting people and critters does not make one an expert. Is a Russian Sniper useing a standard service rifle more of an expert sniper then someone like Gunny Hathcock Using a Model 70 Target rilfe because he had a couple hundred more kills...........I think not.......we need to look at the other things like A TARGET RICH ENVIORMENT.........

No Sir............From what I read about Mr Ayoob, he seems to know what he's talking about............he's not the only one.

Read as many of the experts as you can....Compare them.... see what fits your experience and studies then deside. All are differant depending on your interest. I'd pay more attention to Jack O'Conner about 270s then Elmer Kieth..........I'd pay more attention to Kieth then O'conner if I was wanting to know about revolvers.

If I would have to name my favorite...........which I dont like to do, it would be MG J. Hatcher, why, because of his military background, his Firearms investigation work, his works on Machine guns. Not because he is more knowledgable then Mr Ayoob, but because his experience comes closer to my interest in firearms.

JMHO

 

[Lawyer Daggit]

Just read a book by Lt Col Grossman, (On Killing- which I recommend highly) he establishes that up to and including world war 2 and Korea only about 2 men out of every ten would ever shoot at someone in battle and that with changes in Training this has increased to 95% by Vietnam.

He sees violent video games that are based on military training tools as a basis for this change in attitude.

If this is correct the US is a more dangerous place than it ever has been.

Added to this a mine field of civil rights and snivel libertarians who will seek to crucify you for protecting yourself I would err on the side of an expert who has studied his subject matter carefully over decades over someone with the misfortune to get some notches in their stock.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Almost anyone I have read that professes to teach armed self defense mirrors each others views and for most it is just theory....

First, I'm not surprised that there's some commonality among various instructors. It's the same subject matter with similar issues. And they all tend to learn from each other. That's a good thing.

I've had classes at Gunsite, with Louis Awerbuck and with Mas Ayoob, among others. There were similarities and there were difference in details and focus on some points. I've learned something from everyone.

As for being just theory, I'm not sure that's really correct. The instructors I've had all had considerable, real life law enforcement and/or military experience.

And I'd say that Mas gives special attention to the legal issues associated with the use of force. As a retired lawyer, I have some independent bases upon which to evaluate at least Mas’ understanding of the law and, especially, how the legal system works. I took his LFI-1 class a year ago last October (with threefeathers), and I’m satisfied that he indeed knows his stuff on the legal side of things.

It's my understanding the Mas has been the only non-attorney to have served as the Vice Chair of the Forensic Evidence Committee of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers (NACDL). His class for attorneys, "The Management of the Lethal Force/Deadly Weapons Case" was, according to Jeffrey Weiner (former President of NACDL), "the best course for everything you need to know but are never taught in law school. He served as Chair of Firearms Committee of the American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers (ASLET) and on the Advisory Board of the International Law Enforcement Educators’ and Trainers’ Association. And he’s been an instructor at the National Law Enforcement Training Center.