Masaad Ayoob in VPC Study?

[USAFNoDak]

Hi folks, I seem to remember seeing something about this here earlier, but I cannot recall for sure. Did the VPC really use Masaad Mayoob to debunk the idea that a handgun is a useful tool for self defense? See the excerpt below from the VPC.


For example, Massad Ayoob, a legendary firearms instructor and respected pro-gun author has cautioned, "The uninitiated tend to make two kinds of mistakes with firearms: they either use guns when they shouldn't, or do not use them properly in the rare circumstances when they should." Ayoob has pointed out that, "The average American has more misconceptions about lethal force in the home than in any other self-defense situation. He not only has little understanding of his legal position under these circumstances; he has no idea of how to conduct himself if, by infinitesimal chance, the day comes when his home actually is turned into a battleground he must defend against armed criminals."

 

[deanf]

Yeah. That sounds like Ayoob.

 

[Don Gwinn]

Yep, VPC is populated by liars. They took that quote and several others from gunwriters, all advocating training and study in order to use defensive weapons better, as evidence that even those damn gun nuts admit that guns are no good for defense and you're better off without one. That, like every other thesis of every single publication put out by VPC since I started reading them, is a blatant lie.

I believe that was the report entitled "Unintended Consequences." I'm sure it's available on the website if you want to read the whole thing.

 

[Navy joe]

Arrgh, they pulled that right from his book. Right before you get taught how to be more effective than his example. All that quote says is that the untrained are a walking hazard with a gun. Given that he teaches many private citizens through his LFI institute and strongly advocates CCW I don't think he's on Tom Diaz's :barf: payroll.

 

[RickD]

Ayoob might think that the untrained are bound from trouble, but the data shows the opposite. It shows that trained police officers are 11 times more likely to shoot the wrong person (330 to 30 from 1995 data).

Rick

 

[OF]

All that quote says is that the untrained are a walking hazard with a gun.

Which is, of course, BS.

- Gabe

 

[Scott Conklin]

Perfect bit of text demonstrating why I dislike Ayoob. I respect his skills and knowledge but the condecension that oozes from most of his writing is more than I can stand. As someone with a terrible problem being condecending myself, reading it from others is like nails on a blackboard. The degree of stupidity he assumes about everyone not LEO or himself in so much of his writing is just like adding an infinite number of nails on blackboards.

 

[GSB]

All that quote says is that the untrained are a walking hazard with a gun.

Actually, I don't think he's saying that in these particular quotes. What he's saying is a) most people don't know the legalities of lethal force (true) and that b) employing a firearm effectively in a self-defense scenario is more difficult if one has no training in it.

I agree with him on these points. I suspect that Jeff Cooper and Clint Smith would also agree.

If anyone can dig up a quote where Ayoob says you should be prohibited from owning a firearm without tactical and legal training, then I'll say he's dead wrong. But anyone who wants to say that sound firearms training (and frequent reinforcement of said training) is irelevant to safe and effective employment of a weapon is, well, misguided, and the endless parade of range morons I encounter on a regular basis are fine testament to that.

 

[Don Gwinn]

All the man was saying was that it's a bad idea for people to use guns with no training or legal knowledge, and that the average person doesn't have it. If you doubt it, stop the first ten adults you see on the street tomorrow and ask a few random gun and self-defense questions.

Heck, pull up a chair in your local gun shop and wait for some of the "experienced shooters" to roll in.

If Ayoob had said the average American is a sub-par driver who ought to get some more training in safe driving and maneuvering, it wouldn't have been controversial on TFL. He was quoted out of context by liars with an axe to grind.

I think I've told the story before of my aunt Denise. She hates guns (she's a bit of a flake) but my uncle John always kept a revolver in the bedroom. One night she was home alone and thought she heard someone outside, so she went to the dresser, got out the gun, cocked it, and sat on the bed with a cocked .38 and called her father. Grandpa told her to get off the phone with him and call the police. After she called the cops (the officer on the phone suggested she stay in bed with the gun between her drawn-up knees and the sheet hiding it) she left the bedroom and explored the house. She met the responding cop at the door with the cocked .38 pointed at him.

Aunt Denise is not a bad person, though she is kind of a ditz. But her refusal even to think about that gun (because she was too high-minded ever to want to use one of those things) almost cost her dearly in a lot of ways. That's who Ayoob is talking about.

 

[David Park]

Here's a sample quote from the VPC study:

In a training video, expert Ayoob addressed the same point [mixing firearms and alcohol] in what appears to be a jaded or highly skeptical manner. At the very moment Ayoob says, "The next time you all are at a party and really juiced...with your guns safely locked up at home, of course," he rolls his eyes in an exaggerated way and looks up at the ceiling.49 His remarkable facial gesture appears to acknowledge, if not condone, an open secret, which is that most people who feel the need to carry a handgun are not likely to leave it locked up at home if they are going out to party—and perhaps planning on getting "really juiced."k

So, Ayoob's roll of the eyes is given a whole paragraph, but the following is buried in footnote "k":

k) It must also be noted in fairness that Ayoob advises in one of his books that one should: "Never touch a firearm while under the influence of alcohol, or display one at an occasion when liquor is flowing, (never take a gun into a bar or cocktail party)." Massad F. Ayoob, In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection (Massad F. and Dorothy A. Ayoob, 1980), p. 121.

The report is full of this nonsense. It even quotes Bellesiles. Here's the whole thing if you want to read it:
http://www.vpc.org/studies/unincont.htm

 

[KSFreeman]

Never take a gun to a cocktail party??? Would it clash with your tux. Would my 1911 match my shoes?

Good thing I poured out the beer and put apple juice in my Rolling Rock bottle!

 

[USP45]

Who cares, its the VPC. They always lie. They always take out of context. They always twist fact into a tortured farse.

Lets stop giving them lipservice.

~USP

 

[Kevinch]

And who really cares what Ayoob said?

I stopped reading him when he continued to support his New England manufacturing buddies over at S&W.

I believe I was reading a write up he did on the first Shot Show held after the agreement was signed. He spoke very eloquently about their new products, and was blatant and arrogant in declaring how many models he was planning on purchasing - definetly an advertisement for his chums. That was enough for me to question his motives & moral fiber.

As was said, I respect his experiance and level of training. However, when reading anything he writes you have to remember he lines his pockets with the dollars people like us spend on training & books. While I'm all for training, consider the source.

 

[FPrice]

Out of curiosity, has anyone here seen the video of Ayoob which is described above? Can anyone tell us more about what is going on in that segment?

Oh, and just one more question. How many people here carry regularly and sometimes go out to get "really juiced" while carrying?

 

[ctdonath]

Ayoob's comments in the VPC "study", when considered in _his_ framework, make perfect sense. Untrained people tend to do stupid things with guns (hand someone ignorant a gun, and the first thing they do is put their finger on the trigger); we're fortunate they don't do more harm. Unfortunately, VPC uses that comment to make a wild leap to "ban 'em all", whereas Ayoob follows the observation with "encourage training".

This is the problem with such a divisive issue: anything reasonable said which is not totally in line with one side gets taken out of context by the other. Ayoob is both well-respected by pro-gun folk and is a prolific writer: by carefully scouring his writings, VPC has found a juicy quote and thus can proclaim to the world "See? Even pro-gun leaders & experts admit people can't be trusted with guns!"

"One of the common failings among honorable people is a failure to appreciate how thoroughly dishonorable some other people can be, and how dangerous it is to trust them."
-- Thomas Sowell

 

[ctdonath]

The Endnotes say

49. Massad F. Ayoob, in training video, Physio-Psychological Aspects of Violent Encounters (Police Bookshelf, undated videocassette).

 

[dZ]

Ayoob feels that the VPC is quoting him out of context and was kinda POed in the email i saw from him

i think he mentioned a potential lawsuit over this "report"

 

[FPrice]

What ctdonath said!

The most subtle irony in VPC using Ayoob's words against us is that, if Ayoob really felt that people could not be trusted with guns, why is he in the business of training civilians in the first place?

 

[Dave R]

There are numerous instances of untrained or lightly-trained "little old ladies" or gentlemen successful defending themselves with a gun, without running afoul of the law.

That said, any wise gun owner gets as much instruction and practice as possible. Its always better to use a tool properly.

 

[OJ]

There was a serial rapist here who not only raped at least a half
dozen women but brutally beat them -- leaving one of them -- one of our nurses -- left to die from the assault. He was known to have a preference for middle aged to older women. It seems, a little "70ish frail appearing woman" (my wife's description -- she met that woman) was awakened by the sounds of someone breaking in her back door. She tried to scare him off by
shouting and turning lights on but the perp was not deterred and broke through the door.

The little lady then emptied her revolver (of its 38 special ammo),
hitting the perp twice. Now deterred, he retreated to his car and tried to escape. Apparently weakened by blood loss, he ran into a parked vehicle and was apprehended by police. He was taken to a local hospital where some surgeon saved his worthless life and is now incarcerated awaiting trial for his transgressions.

There are many things we do not know about this lady's strategy and tactics that might make them more acceptable to those of us who think these details are vital. We do not know whether her revolver was a S&W, Colt, Ruger, or some cheap SNS. We do not know whether she used hollowpoint, FMJ, or lead semi-wadcutter ammo. We do not know where she got her gun training, or even
if she had any. We do not know how often she practiced, if at all. We don't even know if she had ever shot the gun prior to her incident.

What we do know is that she had the proper "MIND SET"!!
She had the foresight to arm herself with an obviously adequate
weapon and ammo and was of the frame of mind to use it to protect herself from rape (and possibly murder) when the situation required it. Interestingly enough, after she emptied her revolver, the next thing she did was RELOAD! Only then
did she call 911. GOOD GIRL!!!

We can argue weapon choice, ammo choice, training, etc., forever
without resolution but, I think, this little lady proved beyond reasonable doubt, the most important thing in defensive gun use is "MIND SET."