Marshall makes up his "data"

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Hardin

Moderator
as he goes along, Any here put any stock in his so called "street-data"? :) pretty funny to extropolate 92% stopper, from 12 shootings, as I have read SAnow do, concerning the 165 gr .40 (i THINK it was) Hell, the next 3-4 straight could easily ALL be failures to stop. That would bring the average down to 75-80 %, now wouldnt it? Until you have at least 25 shootings (with CHEST hits,, and without spine hits) you just simply lack enough raw data to make any predictions, beyond, say + or - 10%, because a VERY few more cases will move the % that much. I prefer to test loads myself, on flesh and blood. If they exit 12" of meat, I dont want em. shot lenghwise, chuck, coon, etc offers this much meat. Out of many scores of animals shot, I have only had one jhp fail to exit. That was an 85 gr 380 Silvertip, at 1650 fps in a 9mm reload. It hit a feral dog on the shoulder. Dropped him, but no exit wound. He was dead before I could approach, from 50 or so feet away.
 

Kaboom

New member
It's really too bad he doesn't find honest work. May I suggest pulling targets for flame throwers or possibly a javlin catcher.:D Just another motormouth TROLL.
 

WESHOOT2

New member
Perhaps, like the rest of us, the poster in question has strong opinions formed by time and experience.
During this time, perhaps manners were diminished by the same time and experience.

So allow the poster in question the freedom to have an opinion, however stated, and respect this freedom as you would your own.

I do not dismiss M/S data out of hand.
 

Hardin

Moderator
we shoot, thanks, just cant get out

in cold, and little fingers are messed up, cant type for crap, have a lot to say and this is cheap time passer. Damned right experience, lots of it, much of it unavailable to any here, believe me! :) Pretty hard on you, if you know what i mean. I made black belt in Moo Duk Kwan in Korea, 1973, i was 20 and a guard dog handler for the Army. I got my first 1911 at age 16, my mom opposed guns, especially pistols, so i had to sneak them (had 15 or so before I turned 21) Once she saw me in article in mags (IPSC match results) she finally came to accept it, and i could wear my match rig at the dinner table. I used to shoot all weekend for 3 years, load each eveniing (Star progressive) and cast size and load all winter, (10,000 rds of brass) Finaally realized that 7yd plus was actually RIFLE stuff, and quit wasting so much of my time and $ on same
 

WESHOOT2

New member
US Army, 1973-74, stationed at Hunter Liggett. Black belt in revolver.

Still hate the cold (that's why I live in Vermont).

Suggest, for best efficiency in information transfers, minding manners.
Or whining occurs (which I don't need to read -- wastes time and bandwidth).

Why this thing with rifles? This is a handgun forum, and that's what we should stick to. After all, if it's "rifle-time", then I'm waiting for L.E. to arrive LOL. (Or I'll hopefully have it finished with what I'm wearing!)
 

Kaboom

New member
Well well two duds in the same box.:D Who would have thunk it. I still have a long way to go as I don't know everything yet. Must really be boring knowing there is nothing left to learn.
 

9x19

New member
Oooh, please tell us, as you did on Shooters before being banned by that website, all about your jail time experiences, and your hate of law enforcement officers, and the book on silencers which you authored (from jail perhaps?) and, how even though you are a self-proclaimed convicted felon who can't legally own a gun, you do anyway, as you have a certain disdain for the laws of man, and how you have all this wealth of knowledge to share about the killing effectiveness of the .22 LR in a pocket pistol...

Oh! The drivel was just so overwhelming it's hard to remember it all... well, that and I stopped reading it after the first few posts.

As I will here... I do wonder how long it will be before you're gone from here.
 

M-2

New member
Hardy baby! were have you been? Are you still kicked out of shooters talk? Is the sheep guy here too? Hey 9x19 MR "perfection", good to see you too. M-2

[Edited by M-2 on 01-03-2001 at 01:25 PM]
 

Hard Ball

New member
I have no reason to believe that Marshall and Sanow make up the shooting incidents they use to make up their data base. However the odd 'rules" they use in developing their conclusions would seem to invalidate their conclusions so I don't believe them.
 

Cheapo

New member
More complete data or MS is BS

Hear, Hear!

I wanna know more, like the converse: What % of TRUE 1-shot shootings is really a FTS? As in, one shot fired and no more. I doubt that the implied "failure" rates of M-S are really 1-X%OSS!

I also wanna know the same "stop" data for:

2 shots

3 shots

4 shots and

5 shots.

Beyond that, there's probably little useful to learn. It seems to me that it would be far more useful to know what calibers have the highest 2-shot FAILURES. I'd think about relying on that data.

What kills MS is the astounding LACK of variablility in their percentages as their claimed sample sizes have grown. Smells suspiciously like cooked data!
 

Jeff OTMG

New member
Well 9x19 you did it now. I was waiting for him to hang himself, figured it wouldn't take too long, but now mentioning his illegal activities and jail time you have probably shortened the time until the inevitable. He has been more civil here, if not the moderators won't stand for it.
 

MellowMikey

New member
I think he is gone already.

He has been at 82 posts for almost 24 hours, I am betting that he was shown the door.

If so, WELL DONE MODERATORS. :D:D

Shutting up now,
Mikey
 

jtduncan

New member
Any statistician will laugh at 12 units as a sound base to develop a statistic from.

But I think he does state his basis.
 

BrokenArrow

New member
No proof they (Sanow and Marshal) make it up. No proof they don't either.

I know S&M ( :) )are good guys and I like to follow their stuff.

No matter how ya slice it though, it's just more war stories, not real science (the kind that gets it's data peer reviewed, etc). No proof they really have what they say they have, or it means what they say it means. Ya have to take it on faith. I would like to know for sure. Faith has moved mountains; it has also led pudding heads to hitch a ride on a passing comet.

Then there is stuff like the Federal 155 HS going from 69 stops in 72 shootings to 82 of 88 to 97 of 100. Some failures were dropped from discredited sources? How many more they don't know about yet?

They rave about the 125/357 Mag, dump on the 180/40s, but CHP used both and think the 40 is better. They dump on the 147/9mm, but LAPD, LASD, SDPD have used it for years and think it's better than the 115s they used to use. Round n round we go?

Pro or con, I would not get all bent outta shape over the stuff, or offer it as "proof" of anything one way or the other.
 
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