Man in Ca. defies state registration, #2

[Dennis]

CassidyGT makes two good points.

1) “We have been begging and pleading for our rights for years now and we
are met with little more than a sneer and a derisive snort. ... “ I agree
100%!
2) Cassidy’s conclusion is, “My God people, the system WILL NOT WORK!!
When will we collectively wake up and realize this? ...” Here I must
disagree.
-------
For “years now” we have been trying to use a butterknife to carve a turkey.
It is not the turkey’s fault that it’s a turkey and it is not the butterknife’s
fault it is a butterknife. We simply have chosen the wrong tool for the job.
It is OUR fault we can’t carve the turkey!

We continue to elect the very same people who give us unconstitutional
laws and then wonder why we continue to be given unconstitutional laws.

We are using the wrong tool by electing the wrong people.

The vast majority of Democrats want gun control. The vast majority of
Republicans want gun control but call it “crime control”.

If we continue to elect the same majority of Democrats and Republicans we
will continue to get gun control!

So, rather than concentrating on the 1% of the major parties who MIGHT
vote against gun control, let’s concentrate on getting the right legislative
“tools” for the job.

If your Democrat or Republican will say, “Gun control laws are
unconstitutional and should be abolished and I will fight to do so!” then vote
for him. If your candidate refuses to say that for ANY reason, including that
“political reality” crap, then your vote for that candidate is your vote for gun
control.

The Libertarian Party says they will abolish unconstitutional gun control laws
- but we gun owners refuse to vote for them because they are not “viable” -
because we won’t vote for them - so they are not “viable” - so we won’t
vote for them. Our circular reasoning forges our chains of enslavement.

The loud-mouthed, violence-advocating buggers give me royal pain in the
hinterland! They brag about being 1% of “those willing do something
about” unconstitutional gun control and then vote for the same danged
legislative parties who created the problems they advocate using force to
overcome! DUH!

It is not time to waste thousands of American lives in an unnecessary use of
force to overthrow our government and, in the process, create a new
Constitution without the safeguards of our current Constitution!

Our Constitution has not spoiled or “gone bad”. WE, the voters, have “gone
bad” by continuing to elect those who disregard or defy the Constitution!

If you want to restore our Constitution, VOTE for it!

All the Thomas Jefferson quotes in the world are not worth a bucket of
warm spit if you vote for the very concepts he despised.

Why waste your vote by voting for the same people who gave us gun
control? And then be SUPRISED by gun control? And then COMPLAIN about
gun control? And then advocate armed insurrection because you got what
you voted for? This is asinine beyond belief!

If you continue to do what you’ve always done,
You’ll continue to get what you’ve always gotten!

It’s time for a change.
Vote FOR the Constitution!
Vote Libertarian!
-------
Stick it to ‘em! RKBA!

 

[Oatka]

I normally vote Libertarian or 4th party, but the flip side is that the Libs have to field some people who will get the voters' confidence.

As much as I've been pro-Libertarian, I've had to wince when some of their candidates got out in front of a microphone.

Unfortunately, since the next Pres. will appoint a least a few Supreme Court justices,
I'm gonna have to go Republican this year.

------------------
If you can't fight City Hall, at least defecate on the steps.

 

[Dennis]

Oatka,
I surely see both sides of that argument. Time and time again I have bemoaned the lack of a "champion" for our (gun rights) cause.

Seems to be somewhat of a "Catch-22". We can not get a champion until we become "viable" and we can not become "viable" until we get a champion.

Arggh.

I guess the Libertarians are stuck for the moment being the right wing of the Republican Party (ref Ron Paul) just as the Republicans act like the right wing of the Democrat Party.

During this coming year, I will do whatever I can to break that Catch-22, improve the position of the party most likely to support our Constitution and Bill of Rights, and (at an absolute minimum) make the Republicans EARN our votes by forsaking their "compromising" (Democrat) ways.

Let's see what kind of support we can lend this brave soul in California.

 

[Jimmie]

Dennis, I'm not advacating violence, reread my post.

And fact is there are only 1% of gun owners are willing to fight for their guns.I say this because I want people to:
A. think about what their rights are worth to them
B. Realize that's the hard route and to get on board with voting and support pro-gun politicians.

And as I said earlier in my very first post, the only difference between Republicans and Democrats is that Republicans are Socialist and Democrats are Communist.

I've been a Libertarian all my political life, but the party needs to focus on local elections in which it has a chance of winning. The party has failed to build a political base. Build this base and we can start winning National elections.

The Libertarian Party is not going to jump in and win the White House without Libertarian Senators and Congress men to help support the Election.

The Libertarian Party is not going to elect Senators and Congress men with out support of State Senators and Governors.

They are not going to elect these people with out support of local elected officials.

Until that time, we are stuck with voting for guys that are leaning towards ourside and have a chance of winning.

------------------
The new guy.

"I'm totin, this pistol because my dang SKS won't fit in my holster"

 

[Larry P.]

Recent figures on the Bush/Gore confrontation have Bush 57 Gore 37. With that kind of a landslide coming, assuming it stays close to that, Bush can win without my vote, and if he leans toward selling out the 2nd he will have to do just that. So far his stands have largely made sense to me, but a message needs to be sent, eventually to both parties, to give us back our freedoms. I suspect I'll be voting libertarian unless it threatens to get real close.

 

[Jordan]

Dennis:
Why are you brow beating US about voting!? You made 15-20 mentions of "vote" or "elect". I doubt you could find a single one of 3000+ members at TFL that didn't do their best to vote pro-gun and try to convince those around them to do likewise. I don't think WE readers are to blame for the current electorate. I DO vote and register Libertarian at every opportunity.

Often times, to cheer us up here at TFL, we recount how during the first American Revolution only 1/3 of the population was active in resisting the British. The other 2/3 being either apathetic toward the situation or sympathetic to the King. This makes us feel good because we can say, "See, even a minority was enough to defeat tyranny." And it was, but it would not have been enough to VOTE him back across the Atlantic. The pro-gun ballot box commandos are struggling valiantly-- BUT THEY ARE NOT A MAJORITY!!

We know that being a minority doesn't necessarily mean you are wrong. To make this point, here at TFL, we cite the 2 wolves and the 1 sheep voting on what's for dinner. The outcome is obvious which is why we give the sheep the means to resist. A gun.

Voting has largly failed gun owners for some 65+/- years now. The propaganda machine is only getting stronger and, lately, the voters aren't getting any more conservative or nostalgic for the Constitution.

I get about the same good feeling from voting as I do masturbation... it feels like I've accomplished something, but I don't really have to worry about anything coming from it. While we're busy "cutting them off at the pass" with the ballot box, the freedom hating banditos are sneaking through the back door with executive orders, edicts, etc.

As for the "bragging 1%": They know who they are because they are ALREADY in place and actively subverting this Government. At no small risk, they are already taking those steps we contemplate here, behind the safety of our keyboards. Put it this way: If someone is talking about how, "when the time comes", they will be part of the "1%". Sorry, too late!
The time came.
The 1% is active.
You missed your chance for that title.

Signed: A "loud-mouthed, violence-advocating bugger"

[This message has been edited by Jordan (edited November 23, 1999).]

 

[Frank Haertlein]

I think what we are seeing here is the exact same kind of reaction you would get from anti-gun activists if we were to actually be able to deny them their right to free speech........It's against the constitution and natural rights!

I have argued that the right to bear arms is as important (and possibly MORE important) as the right to free speech and I think this explains the attitude of those advocating violence (however much I hate to see it).

This is, no doubt, the result of the impression that there are no other alternatives.........a conclusion easily reached given the present, bit by bit decline of our gun rights lead by a media who excersizes a constitutional guarantee to deprive the constitutional guarantee of another. We are powerless against their control over the hearts and minds of Americans. Could any of us sit by while our right to free speech is denied?

Like I said, we need a supreme court decision and we need it fast! There is more than just the tip of the iceberg we see here. I would ask this question of the feds reading this........"what would you do were your right to free speech be denied?" Would you fight or submit? Undersand this and you understand the constitutionalist and second amendment activist. The politicians have the means to prevent a slide into violence. I pray they are smart enough to prevent it.

Let's not forget the power of a self fulfilling prophecy!

[This message has been edited by Frank Haertlein (edited November 23, 1999).]

 

[Dennis]

Jimmie,

In part, I misunderstood your posts (as we discussed privately). Sorry to hit you
with a stray shot.

-----

Jordan,

I’m not brow beating anyone. But I DO want us to work within the system, vote for
our Constitution and Bill of Rights, and set aside our other political differences until
we regain control over our government.

I believe that the 3000+ members of TFL may talk “pro-gun”. But election returns indicate very few gun owners vote for anyone other than the very parties who are nullifying our gun rights and defying our Constitution.

If there are eighty million gun owners, why are there so few votes for the current
gun-grabbing establishment? It’s because they have higher priorities or they vote
for the lesser evil.

Also, the last part of your post confuses me:
(Quote)
If someone is talking about how, "when the time comes", they will be part of the
"1%". Sorry, too late!
The time came.
The 1% is active.
You missed your chance for that title.
Signed: A "loud-mouthed, violence-advocating, bugger"
(Unquote)

I hope I’m misunderstanding your comment. When others say the system is
broken, I agree. But we can fix that at the ballot box. This is not the time to
advocate physical violence. Armed revolution is neither justified nor necessary. I
consider it the political version of “road rage” which was so severely debunked in
another thread.

If the time comes when our voting rights are taken from us, then I will advocate
violence. There are also some other “triggers” which I don’t care to go into on a
government-monitored BBS.

Also, I don’t speak for Rich, but my understanding is that he currently prefers to
avoid advocating violence on TFL.

Violence is not now the answer. And when people advocate sabotage or armed
insurrection I will argue against it.

The ballot box and jury nullification can take our country back. And it better work,
for if it doesn’t, then and only then will I change my tune.

Now, however, I’m going to take my loud-mouthed, sleep-deprived,
vote-advocating, Libertarian body to bed. Nite, nite.

 

[oberkommando]

It's still early dennis why you going to bed?

Don't have much to add, but from Larry I agree, out here in kali the major elections are over before they get here and it doesnt matter who you vote for, CBS, NBC AND all the others tell us before we vote so if it isn't close vote Libertarian if it is close vote for lesser of the two evils. This lesser vote will delay our trip into hell where the demo vote will speed it up, the destination is the same. And when we get there we all know the solution, we've done it before, and there are provisions for doing it again.

As to the one percent I was also a little lost on the explaination. If you talk about gerneral gun ownership and with the very liberal figure of 20guns average per owner and 220,000,000 owned then there will be no less that 111,000 in the one percent, if my math is right, and if I'm following the intent of the origianl post reguarding 1%.

Eventually some problems may require a 7.62 solution

------------------
The beauty of the second Amendment is that it is not needed until they try to take it. T JEFFERSON

Do you really think that we want those laws to be observed? We want them broken. We're after power and we mean it. There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breakings laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted-and you create a nation of law breakers--and then you cash in on guilt.

A RAND

 

[CassidyGT]

As to my comments:

I must say that I believe firmly that working within the system has availed us nothing. For our efforts we have received --
"Tell them what they've won Johnny!!" - a grand total of a bunch of bogus and unconstitutional laws.

We are spending our time and efforts in all manner of ways from letter writing, e-mails, voting etc etc etc ad nauseum ONLY TO IMPEDE THE RATE AT WHICH OUR RIGHTS ARE TAKEN AWAY.

That is all we have accomplished. Obviously the 'system' is not working.

I too believe that a Supreme Court ruling is desperately in order. I also believe that the 1% that we speak of is 800,000 people.
That is alot of armed and angry people.

 

[jones]

I've stated this before, but once more into the breach. In '92 20% of us voted for a third party. In '94 a Republican majority was voted in,which was in part, a reaction to this 20% that defected from the Republican and Democratic party's.
There were enough votes that walked away in protest, to shake up the entrenched liberal mindset that had taken hold of both parties. God forbid that this should ever happen again, eh? If a better prepared candidate comes out of a third party, with a hard line stance, people are going to be supprised at what a large difference that will make.

------------------
jones

 

[George Hill]

My wife can cook up a turkey so tender - a butter knife is all you need to carve it!

Cant wait till thursday!

------------------
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
Hey, have I mentioned my new book? It is called:
MEN ARE FROM MARS and WOMEN JUST NEED TO DEAL WITH IT!

 

[Dennis]

(ever so quietly) It's still the wrong tool. (grumble, grumble)

 

[Leadfoot]

I, too, think the system has failed. We go down to defeat one election and one email after another. Deaf ears. Socailism and gun control marches on slowly but inexorably in lock step.

When will we have had enough? When the Jack-booted thugs are at the door? Then it is too late.

The bureau-rats who read this board know many of us here are serious about speaking with our 7.62s.

Maybe this will give them pause before they unleash the Dogs of War. It just might have a deterrent effect.

 

[Ipecac]

In theory, reforming our government is as easy as casting a vote for the right person. In practice, thanks to the ill-deserved credence the public gives the establishment and their media lick-spittles, reforming the government is proving incredibly difficult, if not impossible.

We are slowly letting what remains of our ability to reform government slip through our fingers, in the name of "safety" or "fairness". We choose to ignore the wisdom of the Founders and instead rationalize to one another that, "times have changed." We let ourselves be taught, nearly from birth, that the government is our friend and guardian, and that we need to listen to what it says and do as we are told.

Yet there remains the means to regain the freedom our great-grandparents enjoyed, if only we would use them. How many of us understand the concept of jury nullification and are willing to practice it? How many of us have read the Constitution, and especially the BoR, in its entirety and actually want the government to stick to it, to all of it? How many of us are willing to vote for the person we are absolutely sure shares our ideals and not vote for the "lesser of two evils"?

Many of us here are fond that great Adams quote which mentions the "animating contest of freedom", yet, sadly, many of us here profess to agree with many laws which inhibit our freedom and are completely unconstitutional, immoral and illogical, simply because we find certain behaviors distasteful or frightening.

Sure, we could throw the bums out from top to bottom next November and replace them all with folks who know and understand the Constitution as written, but we won't. We could as jurors refuse to imprison some 19 year-old for possession of cocaine, but we won't. We could make the current two (one?) party system go the way of the dodo in a single election cycle, but we won't.

I don't care what the pragmatists response is, their ideas caused our current problems. This country became the greatest the world has ever seen because of its ideals, not because of what the political pragmatists have done. People from around the world don't want to move here because of our "reasonable gun control" or our "social safety net", they want to move here to be free. It's a damn shame that they can't and it's our fault.

------------------
"In many ways we are treated quite like men." Erich Maria Remarque

 

[Dennis]

"It's our fault."

Indeed it is, Ipecac. We have a choice and refuse to use it. What a shame.

 

[porcupine]

Leaving aside how we got to our current sad state, what is the strategy we will use to recover our 2nd amendment rights (and 4th, and 5th, and 9th)?

By strategy I mean things like what HCI has done, which is to attack the credibility of the pro-gun culture in a modern society and position themselves to capitalize on it by leveraging the well-understood needs of politicians, doctors, and other authority figures:

Created a standard suite of bills and keep them around year after year until the political roulette wheel comes up a winner (Brady, AW, registration, gun-free schools, etc);

Created the entire assault weapon confusion in the public mind and sold it to posturing politicians (whose only function is to pass laws, not solve problems);

Attacked the commercial viability of the entire handgun industry by getting the cities to sue the industry;

Recruited the CDC to fabricate the public health menace angle (and the doctors who write for JAMA who just need to publish something);

Attacked the credibility of the firearms industry by accusing them of deceptive marketing to women and intentional marketing to criminals;

Supported the demonization of the militia movement (who didn't need much help to look kooky and threatening);

Started using the "loophole" term to put negative connotations on the current legislation;

Support range closures, de-funding shooting programs, anti-hunting efforts;

etc, etc.

So where is our strategy, the simple statement that lets us look at a tactic and say "yes, this one supports the strategy", or "no, this is a waste of resources, lets come up with something else." Right now we have many tactics but no strategy that will let us turn this war around. Its obvious that the "wait until the opposition attacks and then negotiate a surrender on favorable terms" is not going to work forever - soon we will have nothing left to give up.

 

[Dennis]

Okay, Porcupine, you’ve needled me into taking a quick try at it.
(pun intended!) Let’s see if I can come up with something useful.
-----

We must define our goal, unite, and act.

1) We must define our goal.

Restore our Constitution as the ruling document of the United States.

(If the Constitution is restored, the Second Amendment will be safe and
secure - as will the rest of the Bill of Rights.)

2) We must unite!

Whatever we attempt, we will not succeed unless we unite those who
believe in the Constitution and Bill of Rights. In unity there is strength.
But if we continue to fragment our movement because we disagree on other
issues, we are doomed.

And that's ironic, because if we do NOT unite to re-institute Constitutional
law, the government will continue to grow until it is so powerful and
pervasive that our various opinions won't even matter.

Therefore, job one is to unite our efforts.

We must unite gun owners: the put-meat-on-the-table hunters, once a
year hunters, hunters with only one gun and hunters who hunt exotic game
in exotic places and use exotic equipment; trap and skeet shotgunners and
the pistoleros and riflemen; those who only read about guns and the
experts such as Col. Cooper. All of us must set the same goal of saving our
Constitution.

We don't have to be clones of each other. We need the aggressive
loud-mouths, the high-level academics, and everyone in between. Let
everyone find the group which best suits individual needs, opinions, and
activities.

We can approach the goals differently and from all directions - but always
toward a federal government constrained by the Constitution.

We even need to bring in people who hate guns but want to restore the
Constitution. Nearly anyone and everyone who will help us move in the
right direction is an ally.

That (quickly and perhaps incompletely) is my idea of WHO we need.

3) We must act!

We must realize that our goal is the restoration of Constitutional law.

True, preventing additional gun control laws is included in this major goal,
but that simply is not enough! We must revoke, rescind, and totally do
away with all the unconstitutional laws, directives, procedures, and
organizations currently on the books. Whether these laws are enforced or
not is irrelevant! We need only to ask one simple question: Does this law
or procedure violate the Constitution? If so, either that law or procedure
goes or the folks who create and support it go.

We should do everything this diverse mass of people can think of within the
limits of the Constitution itself.

Badger organizations such as the Veterans of Foreign Wars and the
American Legion to increase their support for gun ownership and training.

Badger the National Rifle Association to stop their compromising and to
become a guns rights group with power. Vote out weak directors. Elect
strong directors who will fight instead of compromising away our Right to
Keep and Bear Arms. No more compromises.

If a business does not support us, boycott the business and tell them why.
Create a deluge of e-mails, faxes, letters, telegrams, and telephone calls to
everyone from the manager of the store to the Chairman of the Board of
Directors.

If the media does us dirt, send another deluge to the editors, the owners,
and the advertisers.

If the government does not respond, send another deluge to everyone from
the dogcatcher to the President. Even your local sheriff, Mayor, City
Council, etc. must realize that their job depends upon their support for
Constitutional law. And if they ignore us, vote the buggers out!

Unite to provide moral, monetary, and legal support to anyone on our side
who needs it. When a little school like Hobgood is attacked by the
anti-freedom bigots for raffling off guns, show our unity, resolve, and power
- just as we did! And it attracted nation-wide attention.

If we can make businesses feel enough heat by cutting into their “bottom
line”, they will stop supporting those in government who work against us.

Force political candidates for ANY office to declare their support for the
entire Constitution, item by item and, if they refuse to do so, destroy their
support by showing them up as statists, elitists, fascists, Socialists, or
whatever. Vote only for those who support our cause.

Replace any official who defies the Constitution. If we can't replace him,
destroy his power base, his credibility and his effectiveness.

We must become a truly powerful movement which includes many diverse
groups and organizations. Then we must *USE* that power to force
self-serving politicians AND honest politicians to revoke, rescind, and nullify
the onerous, unconstitutional laws currently on the book.

We have the ballot box and jury nullification. We must create a public force
which is “viable” in the eyes of the public and the government. Therefore,
we must unite and act together if we are to have effective power.

We simply must overwhelm the anti-Constitutionalists of every stripe. If we
fail, this greatest experiment in freedom for the common man will die and,
as Ipecac noted, it will be our fault.

Stick it to ‘em! RKBA!

 

[porcupine]

Being the prickly fellow I am, I'll play devil's advocate. My comments will be pointed, but my intentions are to test your proposal for weaknesses, not to pick at you.

You have goal, which is good: repeal all laws that are not in the spirit of the Constitution.

But you have no STRATEGY. You have proceeded directly to TACTICS (which is what we all want to do because its the "Just Do It" attitude we Americans have).

Your tactics are:
1) to unite all gun owners;
2) have them fix the NRA (who will presumably lobby differently afterwards);
3) have them boycott businesses that don't support your cause;
4) have them deluge the media when they say bad things about your cause;
5) have them vote for Constitutional supporters;
6) have them use jury nullification.

Nice. How are you going to do number 1? All the rest depend on that happening first. And what makes you think that even if all (a tall order) the gun owners get together, they can persuade the 60% of the population that doesn't own guns to ditch all these bad laws? And are you going to have your team spread their time, money and effort across ALL the un-Constitutional laws? When are they going to have time to work on the one that means something to them, the gun laws?

We will be fighting a war on several fronts, with forces that are not even unitable, much less united. With that approach, we are doomed.

We need a clear GOAL that is FOCUSED. We must have a STRATEGY that achieves our goal by realistically considering the situation. Our TACTICS must then support our strategy and be compatible with our RESOURCES. Finally, our PLAN must tie them all together to achieve our GOAL.

Let me provide an example.

GOAL: Guaranteed protection of right to own and bear all small arms, both legislatively and in reality.

To formulate a strategy, we need to understand the situation. Let us consider the players in this arena:

Legislators, who make laws.
Voters, who elect politicians and pass referendums.
Presidents, Governors, Mayors and other executives who drive policy.
Judges, who interpret laws.
Journalists, who propagandize the voters and politicians.
Lobbyists, who promise money and support to politicians.
Law Enforcement, who arrest people and confiscate things.
Violent Criminals, who perpetrate violent crimes and terrorize the voters.
The NRA-ILA, who lobbys.
The GOA, who lobbys.
The SAF, who files lawsuits.
Gun Owners who don't want any gun laws.
Gun Owners who want some control over guns.
Gun Owners who want much control over guns.
Non-owners who want to keep the right to own a gun, but support controls.
Non-owners who want to ban guns.

Each of the players has needs, strengths, weaknesses, and resources. I won't go into that, but let me toss out a strategy as an EXAMPLE ONLY.

STRATEGY: Get influential players to change laws to support owning and bearing small arms by convincing the public that they NEED an armed civilian populace to keep crime under control and to fight terrorism.

TACTICS that support this might be:

1) Have a standard suite of laws drawn up and ready every legislative session at the state and federal level that include national CCW reciprocity, repeal of the hi-cap mag ban, repeal of the AW ban, protection of the gun industry from liability to third party misuse.
2) Publicize Project Exile and let the politicians take credit for it.
3) Publicize that tougher general restrictions on guns increase crime and don't change suicide rates. Provide grant money to some doctor(s) so they can publish in a journal, even if you have to buy the thing.
4) Push changes at state level through state branch of national organization with a catchy name.
5) Play up the American Heritage angle and historical crime rates.
6) Use more authority figures telling people its their DUTY to fight crime PERSONALLY.
7) Publicize that CCW carriers are performing a public service and should be recognized.
8) Make a tie between hunting and sporting arms use and decreased drug use in teens.
9) Point out that gun laws are diverting tax dollars from real crime fighting efforts, eg, Canada's recent revalations.
10) Point out the advantages to women! Make them out the weak victim unless they are armed.
11) Distance us from the militia crowd and convince them to disband as a long range tactic.
12) Sponsor a TV show that re-creates self-defense situations. Have a woman host it.
13) Support gun-buy backs from people who don't know how to safely use and store a gun, but not from criminals. Resell the guns through personal protection instructors to women at low cost.
14) Support free training for women and journalists.

The PLAN would put these in prioritized order, with estimates of resource requirements, and come up with a timetable.

So where are the demographic, political, PR, and organizational folks to put this together? The NRA-ILA wants to be seen as essential to securing our liberties, but have some bad PR to overcome. GOA, likewise. SAF, maybe. Better would be to create a new org and ally quietly with the NRA, who prepares the legislation.

 

[Frank Haertlein]

Dennis;
It's not our fault. We do not have control over major media outlets that would give us some measure of contact with the American people. The media demonizes us gun owners and thus effectivly eliminates us from the debates of "reasonable" men.

The media and government are all about control and we don't have it, can't get the money to buy it and have no hope of ever getting it. That is why we will continue to lose bit-by-bit, little-by-little to the process of incrementalism and that is just why some would advocate violence. They too will loose in the end. Submit! Submit to the machine, give your life to it, you are powerless, you will be assimilated! ;-)

[This message has been edited by Frank Haertlein (edited November 25, 1999).]