troy_mclure
New member
would the makarov be safe to ream out to 9x19?
makarov to 9x19?
- Thread starter troy_mclure
- Start date
Nope ... not with normal 9x19 loads. To use a blowback action on anything larger than the 9x18 really requires a lot of mass in the slide. Besides, the barrels are the wrong diameter for 9x19 bullets (.355 vs .364 IIRC) ... if you want more poop in your 9x18 loads, the best bet is to buy a 9x19 (or bigger) design.
Saands
Saands
troy_mclure
New member
i was looking more for low cost on the gun/ammo.
Tidewater_Kid
New member
Purchase a Tokarev and get a 9mm barrel and bushing. Or just find one of the Norincos in 9x19 from the factory. I agree with the above, it is a blow-up waiting to happen and it might be the first shot!
TK
TK
lee n. field
New member
No.
It's been done. The Russians tried doing it, with a fluted chamber to retart blowback. Details at makarov.com, somewhere. It was still too much for the gun.
Not to forget, also, the bore diameter is wrong. 9mm Makarov is .365. 9x19 is .356. Could you do it? "Eeeeee-yeah, but you shouldn't." You'd need to start with a .380 barrel.
I suppose you could, in theory, work up a very weak 9x19 load that would work in a Makarov modified in that way. But, if you're going to do that, you might as well handload for 9mm Makarov.
Don't change it. Use it for what it is, a simple, tough, durable .380 class gun.
The ammo cost factor changes considerably when one handloads.
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At one time or another just about every designer seems to have tried to get 9mm Parabellum to work in a blowback pistol. Some (Astra, Hi-Point) were quite successful, others not so much (Walther, Beretta). Others tried using a fixed barrel with some kind of retarding system, notably gas (Steyr, H&K).
Also, just FYI, even if you did ream the chamber of a Makarov to take 9mm P., you would have a single shot pistol, as the standard 9mm P. cartridge will not fit in the Makarov magazine.
Jim
Also, just FYI, even if you did ream the chamber of a Makarov to take 9mm P., you would have a single shot pistol, as the standard 9mm P. cartridge will not fit in the Makarov magazine.
Jim
Mike Irwin
Staff
ONLY if you wish to increase your daily intake of carbon steel slide.
Is 9x19 that much cheaper than 9x18? (I have a ton of surplus 9x18 so I don't know.) Overall, it would probably be cheaper and safer to just buy a used 9x19 pistol.
Yes, but when you reloaders say that, you never mention just how many rounds you have to reload and shoot before you offset the initial cost of the equipment.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Say a box of ammo costs $20.
Say you can reload a box for $5. (includes price of powder, bullets, primers, and assumes you already have brass).
Your reloading set up cost you $200 (you can get a good set up from Lee for about that much).
Do the math.
Savings per box is $15.
200 divided by 15 is 13.3333 boxes to break even.
After that you're ahead of the game.
Say you can reload a box for $5. (includes price of powder, bullets, primers, and assumes you already have brass).
Your reloading set up cost you $200 (you can get a good set up from Lee for about that much).
Do the math.
Savings per box is $15.
200 divided by 15 is 13.3333 boxes to break even.
After that you're ahead of the game.
Mike is spot-on ... you CAN drop some serious money on reloading gear that will turn your garage into a high volume manufacturing site, but you don't have to. The single stage and turret presses from Lee are very well designed and work well. The tools needed to make commercial quality pistol ammo are not that sophisticated ... on the other hand, if you are trying to eek every last bit of performance out of a round, then it starts getting expensive (or dangerous ... I choose expensive) but that is just not necessary for pistol rounds.
Saands
Saands
Designers use a term, "non-feasible". Briefly put, it means something that can be done, with enough time and money, but would not be cost effective because there are better alternatives. You COULD cut the Mak frame in half through the mag well, weld in pieces to make the well longer, make new parts to fit, make a new magazine long enough for the 9x19, ream the chamber to get the extra millilmeter, find a source for the Mak bullets (larger than 9x19), and then load the 9x19 down to Makarov pressures. Oh, and deal with bulged cases because of that bullet size difference.
Non-feasible when there are plenty of 9x19 guns in the stores that are as small as the Makarov or even smaller and take full power loads.
Jim
Non-feasible when there are plenty of 9x19 guns in the stores that are as small as the Makarov or even smaller and take full power loads.
Jim
Thanks for breaking it down, even though you're a little generous in some places. I'm not against reloading; like I said before, no one factors in the up-front cost(s) into "what fantastic savings you'll realize". Even if we move your numbers to calculate 20 boxes to break even (original ammo $15, some new brass [not all is going to be reloadable], manuals, not going low-ball on the components), that's not bad.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"though you're a little generous in some places."
I reload .357 Magnum for between $5 and $6 a box, and the cost of a box of .357 Magnum is far beyond $20 these days.
I reload .45 ACP for about $7.50 a box (bullet prices have gone up quite a bit for .45). .45 ACP is also quite pricy from the store these days.
From Midway the Lee Delux 4-hole Turret reloading kit, which comes with scale and powder thrower, is $118.00.
Throw dies in on that... Let's go with the Lee 4-die set... that's an additional $40.
Total cost for a low end and bare bones, but complete serviceable reloading set up, is $158.00
That leaves you more than enough to get a copy of Lee's Modern Reloading 2nd Edition, currently on sale for $11.00.
You can cut that price even farther if you go with a Lee single stage kit, where the Lee Challenger Breechlock Single Stage kit will set you back $90 on sale right now.
"some new brass [not all is going to be reloadable]"
I'm still reloading brass, both .45 ACP and .38/.357, that I purchased as loaded ammunition in the 1980s.
The vast majority of my brass has been obtained free from range pickups.
Granted, that's not going to be as possible to do with something like the Makarov, which isn't a common cartridge.
Even so, Mak brass isn't particularly expensive.
Once again, Midway to he rescue, where Mak brass is $17.99 per 100 from Starline.
Granted, 18 cents a case seems like it's expensive, but every time you reload the case the cost goes closer to zero. After four reloads, you might as well figure the cost of the brass is zero if you're amortizing it.
Here's the last kicker.
I'm using Midway prices, which are generally the most expensive of all of the major suppliers.
You can do better on prices by scouring the web and by hitting gunshows and local gunshops, especially for powder, primers, and bullets. Shipping will kill you on powder and bullets.
Granted, prices WILL fluctuate given commodities prices for lead and the state of panic of US gunowners (primers shot up a few years ago).
But, as commodities prices and panic goes, so goes the prices you pay from your local dealer.
At the same time bullet and primer prices were going up a few years ago, loaded ammunition prices were absolutely skyrocketing as people convinced that Obama was going to go door to door confiscating guns laid in huge supplies.
Hell, at one point the price of loaded .380 ammo topped $75 per a box of 50 on a lot of online sites because it was being snapped up.
How long would a loading press take to pay for itself with a price differential of $70 a box of ammo?
Two boxes? Three?
I've been reloading for over 30 years, and I've watched the cost of reloading go up and down, but it's always stayed relatively a pace with the cost of loaded ammunition, making the savings fairly consistent no matter what the price of loaded ammunition.
The only time when it's not been worth my time or effort to reload was when I could get 9mm Luger ammo for as little as $4.50 a box on sale (and boy would I stock up). That's when I couldn't reload and realize any savings.
I reload .357 Magnum for between $5 and $6 a box, and the cost of a box of .357 Magnum is far beyond $20 these days.
I reload .45 ACP for about $7.50 a box (bullet prices have gone up quite a bit for .45). .45 ACP is also quite pricy from the store these days.
From Midway the Lee Delux 4-hole Turret reloading kit, which comes with scale and powder thrower, is $118.00.
Throw dies in on that... Let's go with the Lee 4-die set... that's an additional $40.
Total cost for a low end and bare bones, but complete serviceable reloading set up, is $158.00
That leaves you more than enough to get a copy of Lee's Modern Reloading 2nd Edition, currently on sale for $11.00.
You can cut that price even farther if you go with a Lee single stage kit, where the Lee Challenger Breechlock Single Stage kit will set you back $90 on sale right now.
"some new brass [not all is going to be reloadable]"
I'm still reloading brass, both .45 ACP and .38/.357, that I purchased as loaded ammunition in the 1980s.
The vast majority of my brass has been obtained free from range pickups.
Granted, that's not going to be as possible to do with something like the Makarov, which isn't a common cartridge.
Even so, Mak brass isn't particularly expensive.
Once again, Midway to he rescue, where Mak brass is $17.99 per 100 from Starline.
Granted, 18 cents a case seems like it's expensive, but every time you reload the case the cost goes closer to zero. After four reloads, you might as well figure the cost of the brass is zero if you're amortizing it.
Here's the last kicker.
I'm using Midway prices, which are generally the most expensive of all of the major suppliers.
You can do better on prices by scouring the web and by hitting gunshows and local gunshops, especially for powder, primers, and bullets. Shipping will kill you on powder and bullets.
Granted, prices WILL fluctuate given commodities prices for lead and the state of panic of US gunowners (primers shot up a few years ago).
But, as commodities prices and panic goes, so goes the prices you pay from your local dealer.
At the same time bullet and primer prices were going up a few years ago, loaded ammunition prices were absolutely skyrocketing as people convinced that Obama was going to go door to door confiscating guns laid in huge supplies.
Hell, at one point the price of loaded .380 ammo topped $75 per a box of 50 on a lot of online sites because it was being snapped up.
How long would a loading press take to pay for itself with a price differential of $70 a box of ammo?
Two boxes? Three?
I've been reloading for over 30 years, and I've watched the cost of reloading go up and down, but it's always stayed relatively a pace with the cost of loaded ammunition, making the savings fairly consistent no matter what the price of loaded ammunition.
The only time when it's not been worth my time or effort to reload was when I could get 9mm Luger ammo for as little as $4.50 a box on sale (and boy would I stock up). That's when I couldn't reload and realize any savings.
troy_mclure
New member
im set for reloading equipment, but im stuck with a single stage press.
im looking for a cheap smallish framed centerfire pistol for my gf that the ammo is cheap enough that i dont have to reload for, ie: 9mm.
< $200/1k rounds is worth me not having to reload for.
im looking for a cheap smallish framed centerfire pistol for my gf that the ammo is cheap enough that i dont have to reload for, ie: 9mm.
< $200/1k rounds is worth me not having to reload for.
Jim Watson
New member
Not that I know of but there is nothing keeping you from producing the 9.2ZX yourself. The Makarov case has much less taper than a 9mmP because of its larger bullet, you could probably just run a Mak chamber reamer in a millimeter deeper and do OK. You could probably use Mak reloading dies backed off a milimeter.
Bullets might be a challenge. The Makarov already uses rather blunt bullets seated deeply to fit the magazine. You would be seating that millimeter (.039") deeper and it might bring the case mouth up over the ogive of the bullet.
Would it work? That depends on whether the longer case and deeper seated bullet hurt the feeding geomety. Also on whether the longer case could get out the ejection port.
Would it be unsafe? Not if you didn't handload beyond regular Makarov ballistics. Not if you didn't single load a 9mm P to see if the extra pressure might be relieved by the .009" of "windage." (It probably wouldn't.)
Could you still shoot regular 9mm Mak ammunition? Maybe, if it headspaced on the extractor, sort of like the infamous "any 9mm" Astra 400 ads.
I wish somebody would try some of these Internet Inventions instead of taking the approach "I WANT it so it is S&W or Glock's job to MAKE it for me, even if it is a one-off that would never sell to anybody else."