Mainly just curiosity 460 weatherby maginum
- Thread starter GaryED50
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stagpanther
New member
It's right up there with their other big 5 cartridges like the .416 (which I have fired but not their .460). These days it's probably not available from Weatherby without the accubrake fitted by default (or at least a threaded muzzle), which goes a long way to "spreading" the felt recoil out and it will likely have a fine buttpad as well. Equipped thusly, you'll be surprised that the recoil is not nearly as bad as you might think or have read. First time I shot the .416 I was tensed up for shoulder Armageddon, after firing it my reaction was, "huh, is that all it is?"
Honestly, no macho macho bravado--if you can handle a 2 3/4" or 3" 12 gauge magnum shotshell you'll have no problem with this IMO.
Honestly, no macho macho bravado--if you can handle a 2 3/4" or 3" 12 gauge magnum shotshell you'll have no problem with this IMO.
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stagpanther
New member
2600 ft lbs is what they use for instant limb surgery removal.
450, or 460. I'm familiar with the 460.
A 30-06 is going to have more than 9.7 ft lbs recoil. That is a lot less than 243 and approaching 223. It varies by load and rifle weight, but my 30-06 loads in my rifles are in the 19-22 ft lb range.
A 460 WBY firing a 500 gr bullet at 2600 fps using 120 gr of powder is 120 ft lbs recoil in a 9 lb rifle. Most 460's are going to be a lot heavier than 9 lbs.
That is about 6X the recoil of a 30-06.
A 30-06 is going to have more than 9.7 ft lbs recoil. That is a lot less than 243 and approaching 223. It varies by load and rifle weight, but my 30-06 loads in my rifles are in the 19-22 ft lb range.
A 460 WBY firing a 500 gr bullet at 2600 fps using 120 gr of powder is 120 ft lbs recoil in a 9 lb rifle. Most 460's are going to be a lot heavier than 9 lbs.
That is about 6X the recoil of a 30-06.
There's a couple of small errors here that need correcting,
first, its the .460 Weatherby Magnum, not the.450.
second its not 2600 ft/lbs, its 2600 FPS (Feet per second) VELOCITY with a 500gr bullet. that works out to over 7,000 ft/lbs of energy. Seven THOUSAND foot/pounds...plus...
For comparison, standard hunting loads in the.30-06 run 28-2900 ft/lbs of energy and the heaviest 220gr loads hit 3000 ft/lbs.
Depending on the loads chosen the .460Weatherby develops between 2.3 and 2.5 times the energy of the .30-06.
due to Newtonian physics, recoil will be similarly multiplied. Think about that. Its NOT a 3" 12ga. Not even close.
I don't know how much a muzzle brake will tame that, but I'm sure it will help. Brake technology has come a long way since the late 50s when the .460 was introduced.
I got to handle (but not fire) one in 77. Beautiful rifle, full on Weatherby Mk V.
According to things I've read, the .460Weatherby Magnum was not well liked by African PH's. Cost and availability worked against it, as did the Mk V rifle (without a brake the Mk V stock is not the best design for heavy recoil) but what the disliked most, was actually its performance. For their tastes, it was, simply, too FAST.
there is a "sweet spot" in velocity (roughly 19-2300fps) where all the classic African "express" rifles operate. In that range, properly made bullets tend to punch through heavy bone, like elephant skulls, below that range sufficient penetration gets "iffy" and above that range bullets tend to "glance off" and not penetrate as often. Energy was more than sufficient, but the comparatively high speed of the .460 Weatherby actually reduced its dependability as an elephant stopper. Or so the people who were there in those days and tried it, said. Not that it didn't work at all, but that it wasn't something to be counted on.
When your job is to stop angry elephant or cape buffalo who are mere yards away, even ocassional failures are not only unacceptable, they can be fatal for the PH, or worse, his client.
Capstick related a personal experience with this though not with the .460Wby but with the .458 Win in one of his books. (I think its Death in the Long Grass, but am not sure)
He was working as a cropping officer, thinning elephant herds. He used a Win M70 .458 and (factory) ammo supplied by the game dept he worked for. He tells how he developed the habit of always leaving the last round in the magazine, in order to have a shot if he got charged during reloading.
Seemed smart to me.
Work for him, reloading over the last round in the mag, until the one day he actually had to use it. He fired several shots (10? perhaps) always reloading over the same round in the mag. The he got charged and had to use that last round. His shot was right, but the results weren't. His life was saved by his tracker distracting the elephant by throwing their water bag at its feet, which gave Capstick enough time to roll to the side and put another round into the rifle, and that one did drop the elephant.
Checking the beast showed that his "defective" round had hit in the right spot, but instead of penetrating, glanced off and skidded along the skull coming to rest under the skin at the back of its head.
Perplexed as to why this happened when all the other rounds performed as expected, he repeated the shots, shooting a termite mound, always reloading over the same round in the bottom of the magaine. after firing 10 shots (or what ever is was, I don't remember clearly), he looked at the last round in the mag and saw that the bullet had moved BACK INTO THE CASE by a significant amount.
we all know what that means, compressed powder space, increased pressure, which means higer velocity. Apparently enough to move the .458 slug out of the "sweet range" of velocity so instead to punching through it literally bounced off.
Capstick's books are great reads, looking at the life of a PH and cropping officer from a personal point of view.
first, its the .460 Weatherby Magnum, not the.450.
second its not 2600 ft/lbs, its 2600 FPS (Feet per second) VELOCITY with a 500gr bullet. that works out to over 7,000 ft/lbs of energy. Seven THOUSAND foot/pounds...plus...
For comparison, standard hunting loads in the.30-06 run 28-2900 ft/lbs of energy and the heaviest 220gr loads hit 3000 ft/lbs.
Depending on the loads chosen the .460Weatherby develops between 2.3 and 2.5 times the energy of the .30-06.
due to Newtonian physics, recoil will be similarly multiplied. Think about that. Its NOT a 3" 12ga. Not even close.
I don't know how much a muzzle brake will tame that, but I'm sure it will help. Brake technology has come a long way since the late 50s when the .460 was introduced.
I got to handle (but not fire) one in 77. Beautiful rifle, full on Weatherby Mk V.
According to things I've read, the .460Weatherby Magnum was not well liked by African PH's. Cost and availability worked against it, as did the Mk V rifle (without a brake the Mk V stock is not the best design for heavy recoil) but what the disliked most, was actually its performance. For their tastes, it was, simply, too FAST.
there is a "sweet spot" in velocity (roughly 19-2300fps) where all the classic African "express" rifles operate. In that range, properly made bullets tend to punch through heavy bone, like elephant skulls, below that range sufficient penetration gets "iffy" and above that range bullets tend to "glance off" and not penetrate as often. Energy was more than sufficient, but the comparatively high speed of the .460 Weatherby actually reduced its dependability as an elephant stopper. Or so the people who were there in those days and tried it, said. Not that it didn't work at all, but that it wasn't something to be counted on.
When your job is to stop angry elephant or cape buffalo who are mere yards away, even ocassional failures are not only unacceptable, they can be fatal for the PH, or worse, his client.
Capstick related a personal experience with this though not with the .460Wby but with the .458 Win in one of his books. (I think its Death in the Long Grass, but am not sure)
He was working as a cropping officer, thinning elephant herds. He used a Win M70 .458 and (factory) ammo supplied by the game dept he worked for. He tells how he developed the habit of always leaving the last round in the magazine, in order to have a shot if he got charged during reloading.
Seemed smart to me.
Work for him, reloading over the last round in the mag, until the one day he actually had to use it. He fired several shots (10? perhaps) always reloading over the same round in the mag. The he got charged and had to use that last round. His shot was right, but the results weren't. His life was saved by his tracker distracting the elephant by throwing their water bag at its feet, which gave Capstick enough time to roll to the side and put another round into the rifle, and that one did drop the elephant.
Checking the beast showed that his "defective" round had hit in the right spot, but instead of penetrating, glanced off and skidded along the skull coming to rest under the skin at the back of its head.
Perplexed as to why this happened when all the other rounds performed as expected, he repeated the shots, shooting a termite mound, always reloading over the same round in the bottom of the magaine. after firing 10 shots (or what ever is was, I don't remember clearly), he looked at the last round in the mag and saw that the bullet had moved BACK INTO THE CASE by a significant amount.
we all know what that means, compressed powder space, increased pressure, which means higer velocity. Apparently enough to move the .458 slug out of the "sweet range" of velocity so instead to punching through it literally bounced off.
Capstick's books are great reads, looking at the life of a PH and cropping officer from a personal point of view.
stagpanther
New member
I didn't say the recoil of the .416 wby mag was comparable to a 12 gage--what I said was the Mark V safari/dangerous game hunter equipped with an accubrake and a good buttpad (like the pachmyer decelerator pad) makes the hit "spread out"--not like a massive kick. If you can handle a stout 12 gage magnum--like a slug (I should have mentioned that) then yes I believe you can handle the big Weatherby magnums. The 460 is bigger and heavier kicking, but not by all that much, over the .416.
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Uuuuuhhh ... `Don't think so.
This is a total systems problem:
30-06/150gr/3,000fps
Compare
460Wthrby/400gr/133gr-RamshotHunter/2,860fps/16-lb Rifle_No Scope
Take 25% off with MuzzleBrake (or so....)
CAUTION: The above post (or a page linked to) includes or discusses loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge (QuickLOAD or Gordon's Reloading Tool data is not professionally tested). USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.
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Just a bit of experience to help muddy the water a bit:
ALL Weatherby 460, 416 and 378 rifles come with a brake. Quite a good one, it really works to calm the beast. I have fired a 460 Weatherby with the brake on, it's no *****cat. The rifle weighed about 16 lbs with a scope on it, and recoil was stout.
As for what it's like to shoot a 460 without a brake, a client of mine years ago bought a Mark V in 460 Weatherby to take to Africa for big stuff (hippo, rhino, buffalo, etc. Don't remember if he was going for elephant). He practiced with it A LOT, 10 rounds a day for 2 months. He was comfortable with the rifle and the recoil after the practice. When he got to Africa, his guide informed him that the work safety people in that country (like OSHA) would not allow hunting guides to be exposed to blast from a muzzle brake, it would damage their hearing, so he had to take it off. Long story short, he took a shot at a buffalo with the brake removed. He said the recoil was tremendous! And when the buffalo went down, the guide was congratulating him and looked at his face, then grabbed him and sat him down, he had no idea why. The guide told him the whites of his eyes were blood red.
So, recoil? Yes, and plenty of it.
ALL Weatherby 460, 416 and 378 rifles come with a brake. Quite a good one, it really works to calm the beast. I have fired a 460 Weatherby with the brake on, it's no *****cat. The rifle weighed about 16 lbs with a scope on it, and recoil was stout.
As for what it's like to shoot a 460 without a brake, a client of mine years ago bought a Mark V in 460 Weatherby to take to Africa for big stuff (hippo, rhino, buffalo, etc. Don't remember if he was going for elephant). He practiced with it A LOT, 10 rounds a day for 2 months. He was comfortable with the rifle and the recoil after the practice. When he got to Africa, his guide informed him that the work safety people in that country (like OSHA) would not allow hunting guides to be exposed to blast from a muzzle brake, it would damage their hearing, so he had to take it off. Long story short, he took a shot at a buffalo with the brake removed. He said the recoil was tremendous! And when the buffalo went down, the guide was congratulating him and looked at his face, then grabbed him and sat him down, he had no idea why. The guide told him the whites of his eyes were blood red.
So, recoil? Yes, and plenty of it.
stagpanther
New member
I just tuned my friend's .416 wby mag for an African rhino hunt--it weighs about 8.5 lbs maybe another lb or so with scope. 6 shots in a row and came out of it no bruises, no afterpains, no problems, really. Holding it firmly pulling it in a bit and taking the hit with a bit of muzzle lift (without moving the torso back) and that's what I call "spreading" the felt recoil out. The accubrake and pad on the Mark 5's really do work. Did this off the bench, BTW since I was also zeroing a scope.
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stagpanther
New member
You take your 30-06 on a dangerous game hunt--I'll gladly and confidently take a big bore Weatherby magnum over that in a heartbeat.
Stag, the question was compare & contrast recoil of the two.
-- (But) --
If in Grizzly country, my 1886 Win/`95 Marlin in 45-70/405gr at 35,000 CUP / 1,900fps (or so)
If in Africa, my Ruger M77 458 Win/500gr at 55-60,000 psi/2,200fps
Eat the recoil/match the weapon to the mission as it were....
(But practice each beforehand / off-hand* / multiple-shot /rapid fire)
* Offhand... that 458 Win/Load is eerr.... "OK"
... (Don't even consider it off the bench)
-- (But) --
If in Grizzly country, my 1886 Win/`95 Marlin in 45-70/405gr at 35,000 CUP / 1,900fps (or so)
If in Africa, my Ruger M77 458 Win/500gr at 55-60,000 psi/2,200fps
Eat the recoil/match the weapon to the mission as it were....
(But practice each beforehand / off-hand* / multiple-shot /rapid fire)
* Offhand... that 458 Win/Load is eerr.... "OK"
... (Don't even consider it off the bench)
stagpanther
New member
Fair enough...I recently compared the recoil of the .416 Weatherby to my CZ 457 22lr.
reynolds357
New member
Not bad at all with the WBY factory brake.hi guys. Haven't yet fired one of these, whats the recoil like?
I have no desire to shoot one without brake.
OK, now I'm wondering (and no expert on Weatherby history) they introduced the 460 in the late 50s (57?) did they always come with a brake??
I cannot now remember if the rifle I saw in the 70s had a brake or not. TO the best of my memory at this time, if it had a brake it was one that didn't "bulge" the barrel profile. Might have had holes in the barrel, I just can't remember.
So if someone out there knows the older MK V .460s, can you tell us if they always had a brake or if not, when that started??
I cannot now remember if the rifle I saw in the 70s had a brake or not. TO the best of my memory at this time, if it had a brake it was one that didn't "bulge" the barrel profile. Might have had holes in the barrel, I just can't remember.
So if someone out there knows the older MK V .460s, can you tell us if they always had a brake or if not, when that started??
stagpanther
New member
I'm no expert either--but I will say I've never come across an actual Weatherby that weighed 16 lbs--though other companies have likely chambered for it and it's probable there are many builds out there as well, so a non-braked safari-style gun I would bet probably was made by somebody at some point, for example a Mauser-style controlled feed rifle.