Mag Safeties, Reloads, Self Defense, et al

[BigG]

After reading a number of threads concerning pistolcraft, self defense, and so on, I noticed that people would jump in and counsel do not neutralize safety devices, the lawyers will barbecue your buttocks if you ever shoot somebody! Similarly, don't shoot somebody with reloads, they'll lock you up under the jail and forget about you. Well, I pooh-poohed this line of thought, which has been well represented for years by gunzine self-ordained experts. Some of my dear fellow members flamed me for daring to go against these "known facts". At the time, I said something like, "Most prosecutors wouldn't know which end the bullet came out, I doubt if they'd know you took out the mag safety [of a BHP]."

Now, I have been reading this website and thought I'd post this in support of my position.

http://www.plusp.com/lesson22.html

I can't vouch for the guys bona fides, but at least he is as good as a gunzine writer, who, apparently, doesn't need ANY credentials, unless I miss my guess!

Check out his website! LOL

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Be mentally deliberate but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle Wyatt Earp
"It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself." Tom Jefferson
If you have to shoot a man, shoot him in the guts, it may not kill him... sometimes they die slow, but it'll paralyze his brain and arm and the fight is all but over Wild Bill Hickok
Remember: When you attempt to rationalize two inconsistent positions, you risk drowning as your own sewage backs up.
45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG

 

[ctdonath]

The article's facts are true: virtually no cases have addressed souped-up weapons, and a wildly tricked-out handgun doesn't come close to a generic shotgun.

Question is: do you want to be first? The anti's are going nuts with litigation, and it's just a matter of time before prosecutors discover the "he conciously made it even more deadly" tack, and the judicial system allows it. Remember, gun makers are being sued - and most cases are not immediately tossed out - for much less.

The judicial system is changing. Some prosecutor will take notice that the defendant didn't just buy a gun for "defense" (said with a sneer before a jury), he took notable time and effort and resources to make the gun more deadly with a "hair trigger" (reduced pull from 5lbs to 3lbs), "Geneva Convention -banned 'dum-dum' bullets" (off-the-shelf hollowpoints; jury won't note the difference), "night vision" (tritium sights), "homebrew extra-power rounds" (handloaded +Ps), and/or "unsafe fast/draw holster" (no snap). Defense objects? "Defense's explainations are just an attempt to get off on a technicality." Some anti-gun prosecutor will try it, some anti-gun judge will allow it, and some anti-gun jury will buy it. And nothing that plusp says proves that it won't happen. "Past history is no indicator of future performance."

We never thought standard reputable gun manufacturers would be sued for making a legal product either.

The point that Ayoob and others makes is not "don't do that", but "be aware of the possible consequences". I've asked Ayoob about this. Lighten the trigger and handload your ammo if you like, just be aware that it _MIGHT_ bite you later. People like plusp refuse to acknowledge that Ayoob and others are saying "be aware"; instead they twist it into "absolutely don't".


BTW: I've noticed over the years that plusp takes every opportunity to bash Ayoob and other writers. Go do a DejaNews search on "plusp" (or "pluspinc") and "ayoob".

 

[Futo Inu]

Read ctdonath's post again, because I agree with it wholeheartedly. I'm a lawyer, and lawyers will always try to find an innovative argument.

Having said that, this argument will NOT work the majority of the time. It will only work when there is credible forensic medical evidence (e.g. from the coroner) that the perp/subject would only have been slightly injured, rather than dismembered/dead with your souped up gun and "bullets", and this is a very hard thing for the prosecutor or plaintiff to prove since even a .22 is quite deadly in many instances. In other words, even if a jury is abhorrent to your apparent intent on making your gun more deadly (never mind the "duh" factor for now), a fair, properly instructed juror will nevertheless totally disregard that evidence when it cannot be said the perp wouln't have died anyway from a "normal" gun/bullet.

 

[Oleg Volk]

I recall one silly lawyer trying to bring the Geneva Convention into the argument.

It was Hague Convention that regulated weapons of war incl. dum-dums.

IMO, the real reason against exotics is the reliability of more standard choices.

 

[labgrade]

And the USofA didn't sign the Hague.

First thing I did with my BHP was to switch out trigger/hammer group to get rid of that idiotic "mag saftey." It trashes the trigger pull & who would want a defensive handgun that couldn't be fired even if there's a bullet in the chamber? "Hey, wait right there while I stick this mag in so I can shoot you!"

 

[BigG]

I know, I know, but I've heard more than once not to remove the mag safety from a BHP on this forum. Just felt it was well meant but not necessarily good advice.

The thing about PlusP is it seems he did some actual research, unlike some of our self proclaimed gunzine experts, IMHO. Regards!

------------------
Be mentally deliberate but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle Wyatt Earp
"It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself." Tom Jefferson
If you have to shoot a man, shoot him in the guts, it may not kill him... sometimes they die slow, but it'll paralyze his brain and arm and the fight is all but over Wild Bill Hickok
Remember: When you attempt to rationalize two inconsistent positions, you risk drowning as your own sewage backs up.
45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG

 

[ctdonath]

Which writer(s), pray tell, failed to do appropriate research? What statements made were innacurate? What is actually wrong with what was actually said?

 

[larry_minn]

I have taken "and plan to take more" classes with pluspinc. Darell has many good points, is very knowledgeable both on legal as well as gun shooting issues, and he is a person who has "been there" But he is not god. I have and will disagree with some of the things he teachs. I don't think he minds that. I would never start a argument in class of course. You should IMO take the info presented and fit it into your situation.
Regard object of this post. IMHO don't use reloads. There are many possible problems with their use. You don't need the trouble. If you want I can rehash a dozen reasons. But here is one that should hit home. "How much will it cost you for your lawyer (at $150 per hour) to make that $25 box of factory ammo look cheap"????
I load my own but never carry it and won't unless it is all I have. I have only had one missfire with my reloads. "high primer" "not counting ammo I threw out right off the press and shot as junk to recover the brass"

 

[BigG]

Yes, I understand that nobody is God, we should always check on the facts ourselves.

However, my original question was directed at those well-meant pontifications by our well beloved members about disabling factory safety devices like the BHP magazine safety. I'm not saying I'd do it, hell, I don't even own a BHP! I was merely pointing out that it was refreshing for me to hear a guy who agreed with my viewpoint, i.e., it's a non-issue!

After many years of range experience, the military, I am not all convinced of the high level of gun knowledge out there among the populace. Many police officers I know are not gun nuts, a gun nut knows about mag safeties, the average John Q. Public, aka, prosecutor, wouldn't know a mag safety if it came up and bit him. That was my opinion.

And no, I don't carry reloads. PlusP was just saying the question has never come up in so many beaucoup shootings. I thought it was a breath of fresh air to not worry about such trivial things! Regards to all brothers in arms!

------------------
Be mentally deliberate but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle Wyatt Earp
"It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself." Tom Jefferson
If you have to shoot a man, shoot him in the guts, it may not kill him... sometimes they die slow, but it'll paralyze his brain and arm and the fight is all but over Wild Bill Hickok
Remember: When you attempt to rationalize two inconsistent positions, you risk drowning as your own sewage backs up.
45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG

 

[pluspinc]

Larry now has "earned" the right to buy me a lifetime supply of Diet Pepsi when he returns to class each time or to shoot. IF he gets out of line again I'll toss in Twinkies.
I wish more folks would argue with me in class. Makes for far more interesting classes. The concern with handloads is "reliability" NOT "legal liability." I did fine ONE case where reloads were an issue, but they were brought up by the defense to PROVE the fact the loads were "light" showed the defendants LACK OF INTENT to really harm the nice cops he shot at. IT WORKED!!!! I'll get that up on our web page.
Having investigated shootings and having a pile of actual police/coroner reports around the office I assure you the type of bullet and even the facts of the gun are never addressed nor does anyone really care.
The issues are legal. Yup, they can try to hound you on everything from your movie rental history at Blockbuster (we had one case) to what you said about crooks and shooting them in high school. But a GOOD lawyer knows better to get into a good bullet vs bad bullet or gun related argument in front of a jury. He has to convince ALL of them of the argument, not just some of them.
This tactic was tried when hollowpoint bullets came on line in the 60's with such firms as Super-Vel. Even the .357 Magnum was taken to task as excessive, but it didn't work. But it did rattle bureaucrats to run and hide and avoid anything with the word "magnum" on it and loads like the .41 Magnum died as a result rather quick.
If someone wants I can post actual medical and police reports quotes showing how little they care about this. There are far more serious things to worry about. And congrats to Larry soon to be a DAD, and for moving to the farm here in Minnesota where he can grow frozen peas and corn.

 

[Hard Ball]

When it comes to magazine safties I don't believe in them. I always try to reload an automatic pistol with a round in the chamber. The ability to fire that one round in an unexpected emergency is mighty comforting. On one occasion I would probably have been killed if Colt M1911A1s had magazine safties.

Subsequently I removed the magazine safety fron ny 9mm Browning Highpower. I will put it back in if I ever sell the gun, but until then it stays out.

 

[James K]

I am one who recommends not to remove any safety device. I agree with a lot that is on that site, but he is talking about self-defense shootings only. There are civil cases involving guns that don't grow out of intentional self-defense. Removing a safety device can look like reckless disregard for safety, whether it was involved in the shooting or not. I have seen several BHPs with functional mag safeties that were a smooth as glass.

Jim

 

[James K]

FWIW, I recommend everyone pull down ALL the lessons on that site and read them. Some you will agree with, some you won't. But read and understand.

The main thing they stress is important. You will not initiate the fight. The BG will, at his option, in his good time. And lots of BGs are really bad. I remember a fellow in jail. We were both in jail, but I could leave, he couldn't. He scared me. There was a door with 3/4 inch thick steel bars between us and he scared the hell out of me. He was about 6'9" and 400 pounds of pure hatred for the world, or at least the pale skinned part of it. I (luckily) never ran into him on the street; I would have wanted a 105mm howitzer and I am not sure that would have worked.

I still don't believe in disabling safeties. In a self defense killing (deliberate shooting), it might not matter. But if a gun goes off by accident, in the home or elsewhere, it will not look good to a court that the owner disabled a safety mechanism.

I am glad someone finally refuted the nonsense about a shotgun "filling the room with lethal pellets" as one gun mag put it. A 2-inch spread is more like it.

Anyway, read the whole thing. Think about it.

Jim

 

[BigG]

Hi Jim Keenan,

I also recommend reading all the lessons on PlusP's website. It sure made me think!

Lesson 1. If you think there's gonna be trouble, have your gun in your hand!

------------------
Be mentally deliberate but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle Wyatt Earp
"It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself." Tom Jefferson
If you have to shoot a man, shoot him in the guts, it may not kill him... sometimes they die slow, but it'll paralyze his brain and arm and the fight is all but over Wild Bill Hickok
Remember: When you attempt to rationalize two inconsistent positions, you risk drowning as your own sewage backs up.
45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG