MAC: 10mm Auto vs .45 Super.

[Forte S+W]

So Tim from Military Arms Channel just posted a video comparing 10mm Auto to .45 Super.

As you guys know, I like .45 Super and actually recently chose it over 10mm Auto because I couldn't find a 10mm Pistol that I liked, (held out for years in hopes that Smith & Wesson would make an M&P10mm) and 10mm Auto is unfortunately a bit iffy when it comes to finding full-power loads (200grs @ 1200fps) because so many mainstream ammo manufacturers produce nothing but light/FBI loads (180grs @ 1000fps) which are pretty much just .40 S&W in a longer case.

Unfortunately, Tim made the all-too-common mistake of trying to be fair by comparing similar loads, and for some inexplicable reason chose 180gr and 185gr loads, despite the fact that 185 grains is very light for .45 Super which generally uses 230gr or 255gr bullets. As a result, the test was botched from the get go, and went pretty much exactly as you would expect it to, with .45 Super expanding way too fast and coming up short in penetration.


Fortunately, a lot of folks have said as much in the comments section, but whether or not Tim will actually revisit this test with heavier bullets remains to be seen.

 

[RickB]

I'd compare 200gr loads, since they're available in both 10 and .45, and because both rounds are at their best at the heavier end of the bullet range.
My own handloading and shooting of the two calibers has been apples and oranges, as my 10 is a 5", and my Super, a 6".
FWIW, I've seen 1175fps avg. with 200gr bullets in the 10, and 230s in the Super, using AA7 powder for both.

 

[Shadow9mm]

I just saw the review. That 45 super pushed that light bullet far too hard. That bullet was not intended for those velocities, it did not hold together. Going with the heaver classes of bullets, even if the weights are not the same, would be a much better representation of each cartridges abilities.

 

[HiBC]

Being "fair?"

If you find yourself in a fair fight,your tactics....leave something to be desired.

Folks are free to disagree,but IMO,the 185 gr "Flying Ashtrays" serve will in the short barreled compacts.

If I decide I need a 45 Super or 460 Rowland (and I don't) , deep penetrating heavy bullets would be the point. At least 230gr If a 255 can be had,yes! That one!

If you want to be "fair" ,compare those to the heavy,cast Corbon and Buffalo Bore 10mm,200 gr plus In a relatively moderate cost Glock 20 with double stack capacity,Or even the RIA double stack

You have a reasonable comparison. Either cartridge will do just fine.

Some folks have to be quirky.

 

[Ruger45LC]

One reason some 10mm ammo, specifically JHP's are loaded so low is because the bullet can't handle more velocity, much like how the 45 Super 185gr fared in the video. I've ran 185gr to 1600 fps from a G21 Gen4 using a KKM 4 port barrel and Starline brass. Not good for much unless you want to blow up a pesky rodent with authority. However I had the throat in the barrel extended so that I could load .45 Super with heavy .45 revolver style bullets and tried up to 300gr hardcasts (which did 1150 fps from the 5" bbl). The video was a good demonstration of how pushing a bullet faster than it's designed can be detrimental to performance. The .45 Super is a great cartridge but really only shines if you handload. I liked to load 250gr Gold Dots to around 1100 fps, not full power for .45 Super but right about about max for what that bullet can handle.

 

[TruthTellers]

One reason some 10mm ammo, specifically JHP's are loaded so low is because the bullet can't handle more velocity, much like how the 45 Super 185gr fared in the video. I've ran 185gr to 1600 fps from a G21 Gen4 using a KKM 4 port barrel and Starline brass. Not good for much unless you want to blow up a pesky rodent with authority. However I had the throat in the barrel extended so that I could load .45 Super with heavy .45 revolver style bullets and tried up to 300gr hardcasts (which did 1150 fps from the 5" bbl). The video was a good demonstration of how pushing a bullet faster than it's designed can be detrimental to performance. The .45 Super is a great cartridge but really only shines if you handload. I liked to load 250gr Gold Dots to around 1100 fps, not full power for .45 Super but right about about max for what that bullet can handle.

The issue of bullets being designed for certain velocities affects both 10mm and .45 Super because both are using bullets intended for their lower pressure brothers in .40 and .45 ACP. That said, I've found the 200 grain bullets for .40/10 to be built for 10mm velocities.

I know of no .45 bullets meant for .45 Super velocities.

 

[TruthTellers]

I've never been much of a fan of .45 in a semi auto, not unless it was intended for home defense or mated with a suppressor, so the concept of .45 Super where the bullet is moving at supersonic velocities and capable of penetrating hard barriers better makes me lose all interest in it.

What makes me lose even more interest in .45 Super is that very few manufacturers make a pistol in that chambering and brass is extremely hard to find at the range while 10mm I was able to collect a few hundred of them for free.

The trend in semi autos for the past 40 years has been smaller calibers and higher capacities and I do not see that changing over time. 10mm will continue to grow in popularity and .45 Super never will.

 

[jmr40]

I like 10mm, but think of it as a niche round. For normal uses I'd just as soon carry one of my 9mm or 45 ACP pistols. For 2 legged predators I don't think the power or 10mm, or 45 Super would be an advantage.

I had a G20 for years, but eventually sold it after getting a smaller G29. I shot them equally well and can use the 15 round G20 mags in the smaller pistol. ng

The thing I like about that pistol is the versatility. I can carry DoubleTap loads shooting 200 gr hardcast at 1300 fps for bear defense, or lighter 40 S&W equivalent loads for general use. In fact mine both function 100% with no change in accuracy or POI when using 40 S&W ammo.

Buffalo Bore offers 45 ACP 255 gr hardcast at 925 fps. 45 Super at 1075 fps. For me I can live with 150 fps less speed. As much as I like my 10mm I think that 255 gr 45 ACP load is probably just as effective. I've shot some through my Smith M&P 45 as well as a 1911 with good accuracy and acceptable recoil.

The 10mm does offer greater mag capacity, but if someone already has a 45 ACP and wants more power without investing in another pistol this is the way I'd go. I've never had any interest in 45 Super, but if I did this is the load I'd use.

 

[TruthTellers]

I like 10mm, but think of it as a niche round. For normal uses I'd just as soon carry one of my 9mm or 45 ACP pistols. For 2 legged predators I don't think the power or 10mm, or 45 Super would be an advantage.

I had a G20 for years, but eventually sold it after getting a smaller G29. I shot them equally well and can use the 15 round G20 mags in the smaller pistol. ng

The thing I like about that pistol is the versatility. I can carry DoubleTap loads shooting 200 gr hardcast at 1300 fps for bear defense, or lighter 40 S&W equivalent loads for general use. In fact mine both function 100% with no change in accuracy or POI when using 40 S&W ammo.

Buffalo Bore offers 45 ACP 255 gr hardcast at 925 fps. 45 Super at 1075 fps. For me I can live with 150 fps less speed. As much as I like my 10mm I think that 255 gr 45 ACP load is probably just as effective. I've shot some through my Smith M&P 45 as well as a 1911 with good accuracy and acceptable recoil.

The 10mm does offer greater mag capacity, but if someone already has a 45 ACP and wants more power without investing in another pistol this is the way I'd go. I've never had any interest in 45 Super, but if I did this is the load I'd use.

With the way things are now it's never a bad idea to have as many calibers in a pistol as possible. One nice feature of the Glock 10's is they shoot .40 no problemo.

I'm not against the .45 caliber as a whole, just don't like it over 10mm if we're talking for a full size pistol with a long barrel. For a compact or subcompact, I'll take .45 over 10mm as the shorter barrel doesn't kill the .45's velocity as badly it does for 10mm.

Plus, more options available in the .45 for smaller pistols means I'll find one that's better for me than what's out there for 10mm, which I think is just the G29 and XD-M.

 

[HiBC]

Am I confused,or are you really advocating running 40 S+W in a 10mm gun?

You might have done it,and it might have worked. IMO,its bad practice to rely on the extractor as a headspace control.

Reasonable interchanges like 38 SPL in a 357 work OK because they are rimmed.They don't headspace on the case mouth like the 40 S+W/10mm

 

[TruthTellers]

Am I confused,or are you really advocating running 40 S+W in a 10mm gun?

You might have done it,and it might have worked. IMO,its bad practice to rely on the extractor as a headspace control.

Reasonable interchanges like 38 SPL in a 357 work OK because they are rimmed.They don't headspace on the case mouth like the 40 S+W/10mm

Short answer is yes, but in Glock 10mm's only and if you don't own a .40 and can't find 10mm ammo. We're talking mostly range use here, but I've never had a hiccup doing it. It beats a sharp stick.

 

[Forte S+W]

Personally, I don't see a point in shooting .40 S&W out of a 10mm Auto Pistol. .40cal pistols are lighter in weight, smaller in overall dimensions, and are less expensive than 10mm Pistols, so if you want to shoot .40, then to me it just makes more sense to buy a .40cal Pistol.

If I were to buy a 10mm Pistol, then it would be strictly to shoot full-power 10mm Auto loads, not FBI Loads, not .40 S&W, real 10mm Auto. But then again, I already own a few .40cal pistols, so obviously those who don't already own a .40 could find more value in such a capability.
I know some folks consider it a cheaper alternative for training, but personally I like to keep my training ammo as similar in performance to my carry ammo as possible, as lighter target loads tend to cause the PoI to shift, and I'm afraid that if I got too accustomed to lighter target loads then it might cause me to develop a flinch when shooting defensive loads. That's why my preferred training ammo is Speer Lawman as opposed to something like Winchester White Box or Federal American Eagle, (when I can find it) it's more expensive, but loaded to the same specifications as Gold Dots. I think Winchester Train & Defend is loaded the same as well, but I've never shot it, so I'm really not sure.

Also, while folks seem to be able to shoot .40 S&W out of 10mm Glocks, I still cannot fathom why it hasn't been marketed as a feature by Glock if it truly is an entirely safe practice which doesn't cause any form of accelerated wear to the Pistol.

If folks like to shoot .40 S&W out of their 10mm Glocks, then that's their prerogative, I'm just saying that it isn't for me.

As far as .45 Super/.450 SMC goes, it'll obviously never be as popular as 10mm Auto, simply because nobody really makes guns specifically chambered for .45 Super, aftermarket DIY conversion kits aren't especially common, and unless you handload it really doesn't offer much over 10mm. Still, it's a decent alternative, especially for those who already own pistols chambered in .45 ACP who are looking for something more potent for wilderness defense or simply for kicks and giggles. It's mostly a novelty, but then again, so is pretty much everything more powerful than common duty cartridges for anyone who isn't living in bear country.