M72 Clone

akinswi

New member
I noticed on my sierra loading app if I plug in the FPS that’s posted on my 1967 Lake City M72 National Match ammo box (2640) that it would take 49.1 grains of IMR 4064 to achieve the same velocity. It has the double Red ** next to the load which means its a max or beyond max load.

Sierra doesnt even list IMR 4895 for that heavy of a bullet (175 match kings) and lists H4895 and the same velocity they show 48 grains.

I know the M72 bullet is 173 grains so 2 grains isn’t that big of deal here.
Im just on the fence on creating a clone load to test because my loading info is telling me its pretty hot to shoot in my M1
 
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akinswi

New member
Shadow,

I do have the garand gear gas plug in my other M1 and it works well. One thing I noticed tho is that after about 100 or so rds that hollow plug gets filled with carbon and you have to remove it , then soak in your carbon killer of choice and reinstall.

I never had that issue with GI plug. But I could tell a difference between the two
 

44 AMP

Staff
Cartridge, Cal .30, Match, M72
Weapon: Rifle U.S. Cal .30 M1 National Match

Ballistics:
Velocity: 2640 +/- 30fps at 78 feet.
Pressure: 50,000psi max avg.

Propellant: IMR 4895 50 grains.

This information from the 1972 edition of Cartridges of the World.

Take it for what ever you think its worth...
 

Bart B.

New member
44 Amp,

The pressure is misleading when psi is listed in early specs. It's actually near 50,000 copper units of pressure and about 60,000 pounds per square inch.

In bolt action test barrels, its best accuracy at 600 yards was about 12 inches at 600 yards. Such is life when bullets come from 3 or 4 different sets of dies.

Sierra's 30 caliber match bullets are about .3082 inch diameter. Arsenal 30 caliber match bullets were about .3086 inch diameter.
 
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44 AMP

Staff
I probably should have included this, from the "old data"...

Accuracy:

3.5" mean radius max. avg. at 600 yards.

Now, maybe the GI spec is out of wack, or maybe Cartridges of the World is, I have no clue, but seems to me that 3.5" at 600 yds is less than 6" at 600 yds.

Now, I'm not a match shooter, I'm not into the minutiae you are, but it seems to me that, the pressure of a load is what it is, and if its safe, functional, doesn't damage the gun, what difference does it make if one system of measurement says its 50K psi and a different system says its 60k psi??
 
Between 1957 and 1966, National Match accuracy varied between 2.0 and 3.8 inches for the smallest circle that included 50% of the holes at 600 yards.

CAUTION! The 50-grain M72 load of IMR 4895 is not a Garand load and is an error taken from bad information in the Army's TM-43-0001-27. The same technical manual lists the same 50-grain charge of IMR 4895 for the 152-grain M2 Ball bullet as it does for M72. TMs have general technical information for soldiers and are not nearly as carefully produced as actual maintenance or production procedure manuals (a process I've been through with a product I designed, and which required paying $20K to a specialized consulting firm to complete; that was the price in the late 1990s). Bottom line: the TMs can be sloppy on technical details, like failing to report whether the "psi" stated for a cartridge pressure is taken off a copper crusher or a piezoelectric transducer reading. This has caused much confusion over time, so Reader Beware.


Akinswi,

The short answer to your question, to the best of my ability to determine it, is a charge of 47.3 grains of average canister grade IMR 4895 under the 175-grain MatchKing, using Lake City brass and a #34 primer copies the old M72 load.

The actual National Match loads produced from 1957 to 1966 varied with lots of IMR 4895 from a minimum charge weight of 46.0 grains to a maximum of 48.5 grains. The average of all load values used in that date range is 47.3 grains. The 78-foot 2460 fps number comes from the 1957 post-war resumption of production of military match ammunition. It was produced by Frankford Arsenal and used 48.0 grains of IMR 4895 that achieved 2640 fps at 78 feet from the muzzle of a tight chamber spec pressure and velocity barrel with the cartridge handled to keep the powder laying back against the case flash hole at firing. Using the BRL's drag function determination for the M1 Type bullet used in National Match ammunition, the QuickTARGET Unlimited ballistics calculator shows this would have been going 2681 fps at 15 feet from the muzzle. Hold that thought.

In 1961, Frankford Arsenal apparently got a different lot of IMR 4895, as the charge in that year’s NM ammo was increased to 48.5 grains, but the 78-foot velocity is reported to be the same 2640 fps.

When Lake City took over the manufacture of M72 in 1962, the test method changed. They used a lot of 4895 closer to what Frankford Arsenal had used in the 1957-1960 NM ammo and apparently, they had a commercial-style chronograph setup for 15-foot velocity measurement, and they measured 2685 fps from a 48.1-grain charge. This is what you’d expect from shortening the mean measuring distance from 78 feet to 15 feet and adding 0.1 grains to the original FA charge of 48 grains. Based on Hodgdon’s data for IMR 4895 with a 175-grain bullet, velocity increase is 40.7 fps/grain of powder. If 48 grains produced 2681 fps at 15 feet (2640 fps at 78 feet), then 48.1 grains would produce 2685.7 fps, which is close enough to the reported 2685 fps to be well withing normal measurement error expectations. I doubt that’s a coincidence. I expect my access to a computer and the BRL drag function allow me to anticipate the velocity measuring change more accurately than they could do by hand, and that’s what accounts for the 0.7 fps discrepancy.

The old RF oscillator screen chronograph equipment used by the military and by Frankford Arsenal had a one-yard measurement starting trigger coil and a 51-yard stop coil in the standard setup (hence the 26-yard or 78-foot-from-the-muzzle mean center distance), so a more modern SAAMI-type optical unit like the Oehler commercial units with a 15-foot mean screen center would have brought about that measured velocity change.

In 1963, the powder lot changed to a faster burn rate and caused the charge to be reduced to 46.7 grains, while still producing 2695 fps at 15 feet (2653 at 78 feet). The boxes still kept the 2640 fps label. The 1964 batch produced 2669 fps (2628 fps at 78 feet) from 46.0 grains of 4895, which is a change of 37 fps from the previous year, and which is just about right for a 0.7-grain drop-in charge weight for the same lot of 4895 as was used the previous year. Why the change? I don't know but expect accuracy testing was involved.

In 1965 Lake City used 46.5 grains of 4895 to get 2705 fps (2668 at 78 feet). Clearly a hotter lot of 4895, as the same lot would be expected to produce 2689 fps for that charge change.

In 1966, 47.2 grains of 4895 produced 2711 fps (2669 fps at 78 feet). This was a slower lot of 4895, as the previous year’s lot would be expected to produce 2731 fps at this load level.

So that’s what I have of the history of this stuff. Start with the 47.3 grain load and vary it between 45.9 and 48.7 grains to cover the powder burn rate tolerance and see what works best inside that range.
 

Bart B.

New member
Bart B,

What kind of accuracy were you guys getting with 168s or 175s?
The USN accurized 7.62mm NATO Garands tested about 4 inches at 600 yards, 30-06 versions tested about 5 inches, that's with match ammo rebulleted with Sierra or Lapua match bullets. Regular service barrels were used but air gauged for .3078 inch groove diameter. Bullets need to be a few ten-thousandths larger in diameter than the barrel's groove diameter for best accuracy, Sierra's miced about .3082 inch, Lapua's about .3086.

The US Air Force team used 7.62 NATO Garands rebuilt at the USN match conditioning unit. They developed the most accurate long range 7.62 match load that the USN team also used; match primed case and 44 grains of IMR4320 under a Sierra 190 HPMK bullet.
 
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One other detail regarding the M72 Clone. I have measured both the M1 Type bullet and the Sierra 175's, and both have the exact same distance from tip to ogive at bore diameter (using the Sinclair stainless comparator insert here). Indeed, if you hold the two bullets so the heels where the boattail departs the bearing surface are matched, the naked eye says the bearing surface and ogive shapes are identical. The Sierra is shorter, so you might think that can't be, but you have to remember its match jacket is thinner so it has more lead in it. I don't have a high-end optical comparator to get an exact number, but it appears the extra 0.070" of length in the M1 Type boattail isn't buying it anything in terms of mass. The bottom line to all this is, seat the Sierra to the same COL as M72 (about 3.330" in most samples I've seen) to get the same bullet jump.
 

akinswi

New member
Nick,

That COL is really close to the one Sierra Recommends of 3.320. I measured my LOT of M72 from 1967 and the COLs are around 3.295.

When I get home tonight I will pull one out and measure.
 

Bart B.

New member
Few people know that most arsenal match ammo lots each had bullets from several sets of dies. Pull several bullets from a lot of ammo then compare their flat heel striations.
 
Yes, for the ammo with headstamps that say "MATCH", that is true. But in '62 through '66, there was a separate version with headstamps marked "NM" that were made with same-tooling bullets.
 

akinswi

New member
The USN accurized 7.62mm NATO Garands tested about 4 inches at 600 yards, 30-06 versions tested about 5 inches, that's with match ammo rebulleted with Sierra or Lapua match bullets. Regular service barrels were used but air gauged for .3078 inch groove diameter. Bullets need to be a few ten-thousandths larger in diameter than the barrel's groove diameter for best accuracy, Sierra's miced about .3082 inch, Lapua's about .3086.

The US Air Force team used 7.62 NATO Garands rebuilt at the USN match conditioning unit. They developed the most accurate long range 7.62 match load that the USN team also used; match primed case and 44 grains of IMR4320 under a Sierra 190 HPMK bullet.
Bart B,

Im assuming if you can load a 190 grain projectile for 7.62 nato garand you should be able to load for the 30-06 verison as well. Using heavier bullets for the M1 is Myth on damaging the op rod “if”you use correct powder?

From your knowledge did anyone rechamber an M1 for 30-06 ackley or was there no advantage to this?
 
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I've never heard of that being done. The straighter walls of the Ackley might cause increased feed or slamfire concerns, but I don't know from experience with it. It would definitely raise gas port pressure for a given velocity simply because the larger powder quantity makes more gas. That would mean a slightly smaller gas port would likely be appropriate for it.

The op-rod in the Garand is more delicate than the system in the M14/M1A, so unless you have a vented gas cylinder plug or the Garand Gear gas cylinder plug (as you do), so you want to try to keep the gas impulse at the gas port down (approximately proportional to muzzle pressure divided by bullet velocity) for it. That means you will need a way to estimate or measure muzzle pressure, such as QuickLOAD and GRT provide (which don't agree on the value, btw, but which should give you a valid comparison as long as you stick with one of them).

If you look up John Clark's Garand loads from the March 1986 issue of TAR, you will find bullet weights up to 200 grains. Most people loading for the Garand today find these loads scary, but I have fiddled with the gas impulse numbers using interior ballistics program estimates and found the milder middle loads for the more usual 150-175 grain bullets often produce an even higher gas impulse than warmer loads of the same powder do. This is because bullet speed increases faster with powder charge than muzzle pressure does. So the gun isn't as sensitive to warmer loads as some think, as long as the powder choice is reasonable. Increased bullet weight does increase gas impulse, though.

You will note Clark's loads all use the Federal 210M primer. I did, too, when I started loading for the gun and never had a problem. However, I wouldn't do that today due to all the slamfire reports with that primer that I've seen reported. Most now use something harder, especially the CCI #34, when available. The #34 uses a magnum primer pellet, and many find that because a lot of medium burn-rate powders leave a fair amount of empty space in the case, it can improve ignition consistency, reducing velocity variation. You would want to knock all of Clark's loads down 10% to work them up with #34 or other magnum primers in your gun today. You want to do that anyway as a matter of good practice since powder lots and manufacturing processes and burn rate controls have all changed or improved since then, and you may be loading warmer than you think by following his recipes blindly. H4895, for example, was still a repackaged surplus IMR 4895 then, I believe. The change to the Australian Extreme formulation came a few years later, and I would not treat it the same powder now.
 

Bart B.

New member
Bart B,

Im assuming if you can load a 190 grain projectile for 7.62 nato garand you should be able to load for the 30-06 verison as well. Using heavier bullets for the M1 is Myth on damaging the op rod “if”you use correct powder?

From your knowledge did anyone rechamber an M1 for 30-06 ackley or was there no advantage to this?
Neverl heard of that.

The more powder you put behind a given bullet, the harder it is to make them shoot accurate. That's because the rifle moves more in recoil before the bullet leaves the barrel. And the M1 barrel gas port would have to be made smaller.

Within a couple of years of the 7.62mm NATO and 308 Winchester being used in competition, all the records set with the 30-06 were broken. And the number of unbreakable ties shot necessitated the scoring ring sizes be made smaller.

The most accurate 30-06 NRA match rifles had 1:12 twist barrels.
 
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