M2 Ball
- Thread starter LAH
- Start date
This morning I added a few more to the range box.
I have many 168 grain HPBT bullets I purchased in bulk from Widener's Reloading. These aren't the best but I did sort them by weight. The last of these I tested the results weren't great. I'll give them another try.
The cases are Remington, fired 3 times, primed with Wolf LR primers & charged with 47 grains of surplus IMR 4895, the same powder as the M2 Ball loads above use. The powder is a slow lot with a burning rate closer to IMR 4064.
Made up 25 rounds seated to an 3.470" OAL.
I have many 168 grain HPBT bullets I purchased in bulk from Widener's Reloading. These aren't the best but I did sort them by weight. The last of these I tested the results weren't great. I'll give them another try.
The cases are Remington, fired 3 times, primed with Wolf LR primers & charged with 47 grains of surplus IMR 4895, the same powder as the M2 Ball loads above use. The powder is a slow lot with a burning rate closer to IMR 4064.
Made up 25 rounds seated to an 3.470" OAL.
Went to the range Tuesday to fire the loads. It was a great day, not too hot maybe 78. I fired 5 shot groups. These bullets aren’t much & I was hoping to obtain 2 inch 5 shot groups. I chose this powder charge wanting something around 2700 FPS. Anyway the results are below.
The range.
The rifle.
The load.
Made a sight adjustment but really don’t remember if I made the adjustment after the first or second shot, both of which are to the left of the bull. This is two 5 shot groups fired at the same bull.
The range.
The rifle.
The load.
Made a sight adjustment but really don’t remember if I made the adjustment after the first or second shot, both of which are to the left of the bull. This is two 5 shot groups fired at the same bull.
A 5 shot group.
Another 5 shot group.
This is the last 5 shot group after making an elevation adjustment for a 2 inch high POI. The bull is 2 inches in diameter.
I planned to fire a few groups at 300 yards but after 2 shots it began to rain & not wanting to get wet I rushed the last two shots which I think caused the low shot. The upper 3 are in about 6 inches. I was using the 2 inches high at a 100 scope setting & held on the bull with my first lower mil-dot.
Another 5 shot group.
This is the last 5 shot group after making an elevation adjustment for a 2 inch high POI. The bull is 2 inches in diameter.
I planned to fire a few groups at 300 yards but after 2 shots it began to rain & not wanting to get wet I rushed the last two shots which I think caused the low shot. The upper 3 are in about 6 inches. I was using the 2 inches high at a 100 scope setting & held on the bull with my first lower mil-dot.
Next up a fired the 168 grain HPBT bullets which aren’t much good either but they were cheap. I use these for practice & plinking. I found the load in the fourth printing of a 1967 Pacific Rifle/Pistol Cartridge Reloading Manual. These are 5 shot groups at 100 yards.
The Load.
First 5.
Second 5.
Third 5.
The Load.
First 5.
Second 5.
Third 5.
If you are running a slow lot of 4895, why don't you try 48gr of powder? 2 minutes of precision isn't bad, but I think you can do better with the bulk 168gr HPBT bullets. IIRC those are Prvi Partizan made, and some folks have good luck with them, getting around 1 MOA with factory or handloaded ammo.
FWIW I think that best accuracy from a 168 comes in "nodes" around 2500-2550 fps, 2625-2675 fps, and 2750-2800. If one of those velocity ranges doesn't work in your rifle, by all means try a different one.
Jimro
FWIW I think that best accuracy from a 168 comes in "nodes" around 2500-2550 fps, 2625-2675 fps, and 2750-2800. If one of those velocity ranges doesn't work in your rifle, by all means try a different one.
Jimro
Thanks Jim. I plan to speed both bullets up a tad & see what happens. I wanted to stay slow as possible because of recoil but the Hogue stock really soaks up the recoil so forward I'll go.
The rifle I'm using has a sporter barrel & perhaps a 4 shot group might be better but it's a blasting/plinking/practice rifle so it will be shot hot.
The rifle I'm using has a sporter barrel & perhaps a 4 shot group might be better but it's a blasting/plinking/practice rifle so it will be shot hot.
In my experience a 5 shot group from a sporter weight barrel gives you something closer to the "field groups" you will get, where a 3 shot group spaced apart to keep the rifle cool will give you the "best case" scenario for precision.
Still, two minutes at 100 yards is deadly accurate on anything you care to shoot.
Jimro
Still, two minutes at 100 yards is deadly accurate on anything you care to shoot.
Jimro
If those 168 HPBT bullets are Sierra's 168 HPMK's sold in bulk, they may well weigh out perfect. The typical reason Sierra rejects a lot of bullets is the jacket material's not uniformly thick and therefore bullets are unbalanced. They may measure on the outside very good. But it's the inside where the lead core's enough off center from uneven wall thickness that unbalances them. But some rejects do shoot very well for general use.
I purchased these sometime after 2006 & stored them back. I have no idea who made them. They are still for sale though the price has changed if in fact they are the same bullet.
http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=8440&dir=278|281|1081|1161
http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=8440&dir=278|281|1081|1161
If they are someone's rejects, as Bart suggests, then there will be a limit on how well they shoot, though that would strike me as bad faith advertising on Widener's part to call them mil-spec match bullets if it were so. I thought I'd read on another board that they were actually Prvi, but there I am repeating hearsay. Perhaps Widener's will tell, if asked.
If there's any issue with axial mass asymmetry that would cause wobble (eccentric spin) in flight, a torsion pendulum can be made to measure it. But if there's a uniform axial distribution with a non-uniform (diagonal) distribution of mass across either end of the center of mass that would cause coning motion rather than eccentric spin, then only a spinner will find it for sure. A spinner will detect both kinds and can only distinguish the two if you have top and bottom vibration transducers that show both phase and magnitude. But that doesn't matter if you are simply conduction a pass/fail for match accuracy. Harold Vaughn's book, Rifle Accuracy Facts describes how he made one.
At $0.18 each, keep in mind you can order new match grade Hornady 168's from Midsouth for just four and a half cents more in 250 quantity, when they have stock. And those will fly well for sure. So if you think you might reject 20% or more of the Wideners to get equal precision, you might want to question how real the price advantage is. Not to mention the extra work involved. Still, available verses unavailable is a consideration if your supplies have run low.
If there's any issue with axial mass asymmetry that would cause wobble (eccentric spin) in flight, a torsion pendulum can be made to measure it. But if there's a uniform axial distribution with a non-uniform (diagonal) distribution of mass across either end of the center of mass that would cause coning motion rather than eccentric spin, then only a spinner will find it for sure. A spinner will detect both kinds and can only distinguish the two if you have top and bottom vibration transducers that show both phase and magnitude. But that doesn't matter if you are simply conduction a pass/fail for match accuracy. Harold Vaughn's book, Rifle Accuracy Facts describes how he made one.
At $0.18 each, keep in mind you can order new match grade Hornady 168's from Midsouth for just four and a half cents more in 250 quantity, when they have stock. And those will fly well for sure. So if you think you might reject 20% or more of the Wideners to get equal precision, you might want to question how real the price advantage is. Not to mention the extra work involved. Still, available verses unavailable is a consideration if your supplies have run low.
Unclenick,
I can't prove they are Prvi, but the photo LAH posted resembles Prvi to a T, the thicker, blunter "hollow tip" and the flat base on the boat tail.
I've used thousands of the Widener's 75gr BTHP "milspec" 224 projectiles, and they are excellent for the price. You won't find them in the winner's circle at Perry, but I and my shooting buddy have used them to win a few stages at local matches (at the 200/300 lines).
I think some charge tweaking and seating depth adjustments will get LAH down to 1.25 MOA or smaller. I'm getting just over MOA with the 224 bullets, which is appropriate for my skill level at High Power.
Jimro
I can't prove they are Prvi, but the photo LAH posted resembles Prvi to a T, the thicker, blunter "hollow tip" and the flat base on the boat tail.
I've used thousands of the Widener's 75gr BTHP "milspec" 224 projectiles, and they are excellent for the price. You won't find them in the winner's circle at Perry, but I and my shooting buddy have used them to win a few stages at local matches (at the 200/300 lines).
I think some charge tweaking and seating depth adjustments will get LAH down to 1.25 MOA or smaller. I'm getting just over MOA with the 224 bullets, which is appropriate for my skill level at High Power.
Jimro