M193 still used by military?

THEZACHARIAS

New member
I know the Air Force doesnt, everythings converted over to the M855. From what Ive heard (and this is only what ive heard, I have no evidence that this is the truth), the driving factor was the increasing number of M4s in the inventory (as opposed to M16s). You cant use the older ammo in the M4s, but you can use the 855 in the old M16s.

Its used in everything thats chambered in 5.56. Theres also the M856 tracer round that is used in crew-served weapons.
 

vranasaurus

New member
the driving factor was the increasing number of M4s in the inventory (as opposed to M16s). You cant use the older ammo in the M4s, but you can use the 855 in the old M16s.

The M16A2 and A4 have the same twist rate as the M4. The 1:7 twist is used to stabilize longer (heavier) bulletts. You can fire 55 grain bulletts out of any of these rifles.
 

THEZACHARIAS

New member
I know you can use it in both, but the old ammo isnt authorized in the new rifles. At least it isnt according to the CATMs guys. The explanation they gave had something to do with the shorter barrel on the M4s and the differences in the gas systems. Twist rate didnt factor into the conversation.
 
You cant use the older ammo in the M4s, but you can use the 855 in the old M16s.

You've got it backwards. The M4 will fire M193 (55gr) just fine; but the older M16A1 will not fire M855 (62gr) accurately at all because it uses a 1/12 twist barrel and M855 is too long for that twist.

I was wondering cause I have some that is stamped

L C 0 9

Does that mean it was cranked out this year?

It means the brass casing was cranked out of Lake City in 2009. Do you have actual M193 or XM193? I ask because they are not the same product. Federal still makes lots of XM193. Not so sure about M193; but I suspect they still make some - here is a solicitiation from 2004 from FBO to buy 235,000 rounds of M193.
 
It's M 193

I am so confused over the M4 twist rate. For years the AR-15s had the same twist rate as the M16A2.

Than all of sudden after the invasion of Afganistan you see a swarm of AR-15s on the market using a 1 in 9. Especially M4 carbines.

Did the military experiment with the 1 in 9 twist at one time or are they actually using that twist rate in the M4s now?

The 1 in 9 twist rate is the most universal twist rate as far as handling all bullet weights.
 

vranasaurus

New member
The M4 has a 1:7.

The primary reason the military uses a 1:7 is that the tracer rounds are so long that they require that twist rate.

The 1:9 twist rate is used in AR-15's because it is a compromise that will shoot a wide range of bullett weights well.
 

THEZACHARIAS

New member
Pretty sure its 1:7 for the same reasons as the rifle. The M249 (SAW) uses the same ammunition as the M4/M16, and I believe it has the capability to feed off of the same magazines, though I dont know the details of how thats accomplished.
 

Chindo18Z

New member
M193 still used by military? Yes (with caveats).

Other posters have already explained valid differences in performance caused by differences in bullet weights (M855 "Green Tip" 62 grain vs. M193 Vietnam era 55 grain) and rifling twists (1:14, 1:12, 1:9, and 1:7).

The preponderant DoD Standard ammo for current issue M16A2s, A3s, A4s, M4s, M4A1s, and M249 SAW light machineguns is M855 Ball. It works best out of the 1:7 twist barrels equipping those currently issued military weapons. It will not stabilize properly out of older M16A1 rifles (with 1:12 twist) past about 80-90 yards. Attempting a 300 yard shot would be an exercise in futility. It will however suffice for close in emergency shooting (under 75 yards in my experience) although you aren't going to get tight shot groups. Past 100 yards and you start shooting a widely dispersed "shotgun" pattern using rifle bullets. The dispersion increases with range to the target.

The Substitute Standard is still M193 Ball (of which there are still warehouse loads although rapidly becoming scarce in some venues). This ammo was manufactured and stockpiled by the millions for the original M16A1 & XM-177s (CAR-15s) of 1960s-1970s production vintage. It has been given away or sold by the boatload to allies whom we have equipped with older M16A1s. It continues to be manufactured domestically and by numerous overseas manufacturers. M193 will function out of newer military weapons with 1:7 rifling although accuracy suffers a bit. It makes great live fire CQB training ammo (which is what we use it for). It can be requested for training (at least in the Army), but is rarely seen downrange except for a very few Reserve or Guard units still equipped with M16A1s (and who are often issued M855 anyway out of simple ignorance on the part of unit logisticians).

The Army authorizes M193 for use in a "combat emergency" (i.e., that's all ya got left; no more M855).

Most civilian ARs of recent (90's - 00's) manufacture have 1:9 twist rates and can accurately shoot either bullet weight although the weapon must be zeroed for one or the other.
 
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