Does anyone have any information or data on US military 5.56mm (.223) ammunition with green bullet tips? In the context where I heard about it it is supposed to be designed for greatly increased penetration. Green tip bullets in US small arms ammunition used to mean multiple projectile rounds but that would not be consistent with greatly increased penetration.
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M16 Rifle Green Tip Bullet Ammunition
- Thread starter Hard Ball
- Start date
Jeff White
New member
Hard Ball,
The ammuntion you are referring to is known as M855 ball ammuntion. The projectile weighs 62 grains and has a steel penetrator that enables it to penetrate the old US steel helmet at ranges out to 600 meters. The round was developed by FN where it was known as SS109. It has been adopted as the NATO standard rifle cartridge. It has a green tip so the troops can tell it from M193 ball which only has a 55 grain projectile. This is important because the projectile in M855 is significantly longer then the M93 projectile. This longer projectile requires a faster twist to stabilize it enough for accurate shooting. The US military still has large quantities of M16A1 rifles in service. These rifles have a 1/12 inch twist rate. This is great for the M193 ammunition but is not a fast enough rate for M855. M855 shoots fine out of 1/9 or faster twist barrels. The M16A2 and the M4 have 1/7 inch twist barrels. This twist was adopted to give acceptable accuracy out of the M856 tracer round.
The M855 will chamber and fire in the M16A1 safely but accuracy is seriously degraded. It is approved for use in the M16A1 only in a combat emergency and it is only accurate to about 100 meters. This is combat accuracy not, benchrest accuracy.
If the US military ever gets all of the M16s and M16A1s out of service they will probably do away with the green tip on the M855 ammo. No other NATO country uses M855 or SS109 with green tips as they changed from 7.62x51 to 5.56x45 and never had large numbers of rifles with the slower twist rate in service.
The BATF has ruled that M855/SS109 ammuntion is not armor piercing and thus legal for civilians to possess.
HTH
Jeff
The ammuntion you are referring to is known as M855 ball ammuntion. The projectile weighs 62 grains and has a steel penetrator that enables it to penetrate the old US steel helmet at ranges out to 600 meters. The round was developed by FN where it was known as SS109. It has been adopted as the NATO standard rifle cartridge. It has a green tip so the troops can tell it from M193 ball which only has a 55 grain projectile. This is important because the projectile in M855 is significantly longer then the M93 projectile. This longer projectile requires a faster twist to stabilize it enough for accurate shooting. The US military still has large quantities of M16A1 rifles in service. These rifles have a 1/12 inch twist rate. This is great for the M193 ammunition but is not a fast enough rate for M855. M855 shoots fine out of 1/9 or faster twist barrels. The M16A2 and the M4 have 1/7 inch twist barrels. This twist was adopted to give acceptable accuracy out of the M856 tracer round.
The M855 will chamber and fire in the M16A1 safely but accuracy is seriously degraded. It is approved for use in the M16A1 only in a combat emergency and it is only accurate to about 100 meters. This is combat accuracy not, benchrest accuracy.
If the US military ever gets all of the M16s and M16A1s out of service they will probably do away with the green tip on the M855 ammo. No other NATO country uses M855 or SS109 with green tips as they changed from 7.62x51 to 5.56x45 and never had large numbers of rifles with the slower twist rate in service.
The BATF has ruled that M855/SS109 ammuntion is not armor piercing and thus legal for civilians to possess.
HTH
Jeff
Just as a historical note, this is also the ammo that the soldiers complained about during the Somalia fiasco. Unless they scored a heart or head shot, it would take way too many rounds to put the bad guys down. They likened it to shooting someone with an ice pick.
(Info from Mark Bowden's Blackhawk Down)
(Info from Mark Bowden's Blackhawk Down)
Gopher a 45
New member
Jeff,
Is it legal for us civilians because the majority of the bullet is not steel, but still lead/copper? I forget the wording of the BATF rule on the AP subject. Oh, and weren't the complaints in Somalia simply due to the fact that the M855 tends not to upset as much on impact as the old M193? (Trying not to start a "tumbling bullet" thread here)
Is it legal for us civilians because the majority of the bullet is not steel, but still lead/copper? I forget the wording of the BATF rule on the AP subject. Oh, and weren't the complaints in Somalia simply due to the fact that the M855 tends not to upset as much on impact as the old M193? (Trying not to start a "tumbling bullet" thread here)
Jeff White
New member
Gopher,
I believe that the steel core does not constitute enough of the bullet mass to make "armor piercing" in the eyes of the BATF.
From what I've read about the wound ballistics the M855 is very similar in performance to the old M193. I think the stories related in "Blackhawk Down" (very good book BTW a lot of lessons there) are more the reaction of soldiers seeing their first combat and discovering that there are no "magic bullets" and that people who are shot don't always immediately crumple to the ground like in the movies or on TV. These same type of instances can be found in almost every war since the invention of gunpowder. Many acts of heroism have been performed by soldiers who haven't even realised they are wounded until it's over with. This has been true of soldiers wounded by the "full size" cartridges of WWII (.30, .303, 8mm) and even the devastating 5.45x39 round of the AK74. The plain and simple truth is that there are no magic bullets.
Jeff
I believe that the steel core does not constitute enough of the bullet mass to make "armor piercing" in the eyes of the BATF.
From what I've read about the wound ballistics the M855 is very similar in performance to the old M193. I think the stories related in "Blackhawk Down" (very good book BTW a lot of lessons there) are more the reaction of soldiers seeing their first combat and discovering that there are no "magic bullets" and that people who are shot don't always immediately crumple to the ground like in the movies or on TV. These same type of instances can be found in almost every war since the invention of gunpowder. Many acts of heroism have been performed by soldiers who haven't even realised they are wounded until it's over with. This has been true of soldiers wounded by the "full size" cartridges of WWII (.30, .303, 8mm) and even the devastating 5.45x39 round of the AK74. The plain and simple truth is that there are no magic bullets.
Jeff
I read Tango27s reply just before going to the local library. I picked up a copy of "Black Hawk Down" and read the sections in which the Rangers used this ammunition in street fighting in Somalia. Several of them had extensive combat experience. The rangers repeatedly describe getting 5 or 6 body hits on hostile Somalians with little observable effect and got return fire from the men thay had just shot. If this is now our standard combat rifle cartridge we are in a hell of a lot of trouble!
Gopher a 45
New member
Now, I don't want to cross over into urban legend here about the "biker on PCP who took a full magazine of 9mm and didn't go down" kind of thing, but is it possibly significant that most of the Somali militiamen were hopped up on khat, the local version of speed, and so might be less prone to go into shock from a hit?
Good book, by the way. Makes you glad they never sent in the ground troops in Kosovo. Probably would have made Mogadishu seem like a gnat bite, though I'm not real happy about we DID do there, mind you.
Good book, by the way. Makes you glad they never sent in the ground troops in Kosovo. Probably would have made Mogadishu seem like a gnat bite, though I'm not real happy about we DID do there, mind you.
Glock-n-Tankbag
New member
I have tried the Isreali green tip ammo which I believe they call M855 and the penetration was incredible. At 100 yrds it went thru 3/4"s solid aluminum block. It also penetrated 3/8"s of cold rolled steel (seperate test). I was even able to recover the little penetrator steel part that did all the work. It just looks like a little cone shaped pellet. Very light too. Amazing what it can do. BTW the accuracy out of my 16" 1in9 twist was great, about one to two inches in total. Funny how when I shoot 68 grainers (only 6 more grns.) I can't even find the bullet holes because they are so unstable due to the twist and barrel length.
Daniel Watters
New member
The description of the ammo Sgt Howe curses in Blackhawk Down is not quite consistent with the M855. Howe's ammo is described as a 'new' type, yet M855 was standardized in the early '80s and has been used in combat before. It is also said to have a tungsten penetrator while the M855 has a steel penetrator ahead of a lead core. All of this leads me to wonder if Howe and the other Delta troopers were issued trial quantities of what is now type-classified as the M995 AP cartridge.
Jeff White
New member
Daniel,
That is possible. M995 was type classified in 1986 and the only DODAC for it is for linked rounds to be fired out of the M249 SAW. However Delta could have had anything they wanted. BTW M995 is made in Europe.
I believe M855 was standardized in '82 or '83 when the Marines began receiving the M16A2. The Army didn't begin fielding the M16A2 until '85. The Rangers were one of the first units to receive them so M855 wouldn't have been new to them at all. For most of the Rangers 9average age, early 20s) M16A2s and M855 would have been the only rifle/ammo combo they had ever used. I don't remember Bowden mentioning that a lot of the Rangers had extensive combat experience. With most of them in their early 20's and the last significant engagement the Rangers were involved in being Panama almost four years earlier, I don't think that's likely. Delta on the other hand, had some Vietnam vets plus a lot of experience in the Persian Gulf and many ops that no on talks about.
Jeff
That is possible. M995 was type classified in 1986 and the only DODAC for it is for linked rounds to be fired out of the M249 SAW. However Delta could have had anything they wanted. BTW M995 is made in Europe.
I believe M855 was standardized in '82 or '83 when the Marines began receiving the M16A2. The Army didn't begin fielding the M16A2 until '85. The Rangers were one of the first units to receive them so M855 wouldn't have been new to them at all. For most of the Rangers 9average age, early 20s) M16A2s and M855 would have been the only rifle/ammo combo they had ever used. I don't remember Bowden mentioning that a lot of the Rangers had extensive combat experience. With most of them in their early 20's and the last significant engagement the Rangers were involved in being Panama almost four years earlier, I don't think that's likely. Delta on the other hand, had some Vietnam vets plus a lot of experience in the Persian Gulf and many ops that no on talks about.
Jeff
Sorry to get off the subject here.. but this sounds to me like a re-hash of the OLD 223 vs 7.62 discussions in the early 60's
And feel free to correct me if i'm wrong but isn't m855 a 55 grain BALL cartridge.. or is my box of surplus ammo mis-marked???? (or from another country)
Dr.Rob
PS I'm posting my observations of blackhawk down on the general discussion forum.
And feel free to correct me if i'm wrong but isn't m855 a 55 grain BALL cartridge.. or is my box of surplus ammo mis-marked???? (or from another country)
Dr.Rob
PS I'm posting my observations of blackhawk down on the general discussion forum.
Jeff White
New member
Doc,
M855 is 62 grain ball ammo. M193 is 55 grain ball ammo. If you have a box of ammo that is marked M855 55 grain it is either mismarked or being sold by someone who is trying to confuse the public and get higher prices for the 55 grain stuff. This is not as uncommon as it might seem. I caught a dealer at a local gun show advertising South African surplus 55 grain ammo as 5.56 NATO. I politely told him that the NATO standard was the 62 grain M855/SS109 and reminded him that South Africa was never a member of NATO and that the ammunition was produced for use in their Galil copy, the R4 which has a 1/12 twist barrel. With IMI M855 going for $299-$310 for 1200 rounds and South African surplus M193 going for $189 for 1200 rounds the price difference is great enough to make a little fraud on the unknowing shooting public a very profitable deal.
As for the wounding debate; 5.56mm ammo violently fragments and the bullet breaks apart when it hits flesh at velocities of 2700 feet per second or higher. M855 out of a 20" M16A2 barrel will only be at that muzzle velocity for about 160 yards. I think in Blackhawk Down the soldier was firing a carbine of some type, probably an early M4 with a 14.5 inch barrel. M855 would have a lot shorter effective range where velocities of 2700 fps or higher were maintained out of that short barrel. This also may have contributed to the soldiers perception that his bullets were not having the desired effect.
Jeff
M855 is 62 grain ball ammo. M193 is 55 grain ball ammo. If you have a box of ammo that is marked M855 55 grain it is either mismarked or being sold by someone who is trying to confuse the public and get higher prices for the 55 grain stuff. This is not as uncommon as it might seem. I caught a dealer at a local gun show advertising South African surplus 55 grain ammo as 5.56 NATO. I politely told him that the NATO standard was the 62 grain M855/SS109 and reminded him that South Africa was never a member of NATO and that the ammunition was produced for use in their Galil copy, the R4 which has a 1/12 twist barrel. With IMI M855 going for $299-$310 for 1200 rounds and South African surplus M193 going for $189 for 1200 rounds the price difference is great enough to make a little fraud on the unknowing shooting public a very profitable deal.
As for the wounding debate; 5.56mm ammo violently fragments and the bullet breaks apart when it hits flesh at velocities of 2700 feet per second or higher. M855 out of a 20" M16A2 barrel will only be at that muzzle velocity for about 160 yards. I think in Blackhawk Down the soldier was firing a carbine of some type, probably an early M4 with a 14.5 inch barrel. M855 would have a lot shorter effective range where velocities of 2700 fps or higher were maintained out of that short barrel. This also may have contributed to the soldiers perception that his bullets were not having the desired effect.
Jeff
Hmmmm..
seems i have a mystery box of 223 ammo (no green tip) Nato headstamp and 55 gr. fmj.. (plain jain cardboard, stamped "cartridges cal 5.56mm m855 ball 55g" I'm guessing its m193 in the wrong box.. or the 55g means something else?? Or some DUDE in his basement is cranking out fake cardboards?? Any way I paid like $3 for it so its not like I got ripped off.
Thanks for the info.
SS109 has been hard to find and expensive when its available, (even as component bullets) for less $$ I can get winchester 55 gr sp which is better for coyotes and such anyway.
Dr.Rob
seems i have a mystery box of 223 ammo (no green tip) Nato headstamp and 55 gr. fmj.. (plain jain cardboard, stamped "cartridges cal 5.56mm m855 ball 55g" I'm guessing its m193 in the wrong box.. or the 55g means something else?? Or some DUDE in his basement is cranking out fake cardboards?? Any way I paid like $3 for it so its not like I got ripped off.
Thanks for the info.
SS109 has been hard to find and expensive when its available, (even as component bullets) for less $$ I can get winchester 55 gr sp which is better for coyotes and such anyway.
Dr.Rob
You can buy SS109/M855 62 gr. FMJSCBT bullets from Wideners in Tenn. (www.wideners.com). $40/500 or $68/1000. I was impressed with it's accuracy from my 1:8 twist Armalite (about 1.5" at 100 yards). I didn't do penetration testing.
Wideners also has loaded M855 ammo from IMI, $315 for 1200 rounds, free shipping.
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Wideners also has loaded M855 ammo from IMI, $315 for 1200 rounds, free shipping.
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It seems that the green bullet tip code has been used to identify two different types of 5.56mm(.223) ammunition, the M885 Ball and the ammunition used by the Rangers in Somalia, This ammunition seems to have been developed by the Army's SLAPS program which was aimed at developing bullets with exteremely high penetration. The two different bullets might demonstrate different effects when used in the anti-personnel role.