M1 Garand Question

[Bob Thompson]

For you Garand buffs, when you charge clips the cartridges are staggered in the clip; does it matter if the first cartridge is offset to the right or left as looking down into the clip. I wouldn't think it would matter and I can't remember back to my Army days as most clips were already filled when we got them to shoot. Expecting CMP rifle any day now and want to fill clips. Also would this be in a manual somewhere. Thanks much,Bob

 

[Outlaw1]

I don't think it makes a difference, after the first shot it will be staggered opposite the first. The rifle doesn't know if it's firing the first, third, or eighth shot.
Back when I shot Garands in competition a lot, I always kept my eye on the target and loaded the weapon by "feel", never paying any attention to how they were staggered.
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Happiness is a tight group!


[This message has been edited by Outlaw1 (edited September 11, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Outlaw1 (edited September 11, 1999).]

 

[.]

Bob,

I was taught over the years, by both my military instructors and the WW-II Vets that coached me in DCM competition, to load the enbloc clip so that the first and last rounds were on the opposite side as the "bumps", or top round on the left as the open end points away from you. However, the 2-round & 5-round clips which I have are configured to ensure that positioning of top cartridges is the opposite of that. Regardless, during the past 30 years of shooting the Garand, I’ve never experienced a failure to feed as a result of which round went in first, or on which side the top round was positioned.

The application of this specific loading routine is credited to Colonel James L. Hatcher, in an attempt to prevent the public discovery of a design flaw during the first public appearance of the Garand at the Camp Perry National Matches. The flaw resulted in a phenomenon known as the 7th round stoppage. If the top round was on the right side of the clip, then the seventh round was also on the right side. The seventh round would often fail to feed, and would instead jump up and jam the point of the bullet on the top of the receiver. To preclude the inevitable public criticism of the Ordnance Department and the foreshortening of his military career, COL Hatcher took pre-emptive actions. He modified a slide follower so that it was impossible to load the rifle with a clip which contained the 7th round on the right side. He immediately had Springfield Armory make 200 more such specially modified followers, and installed them in the rifles just prior to their showing at Camp Perry. He also had Captain Rothwell H. Brown ensure that all of the loaded clips bound for the Camp Perry demonstration had no 7th rounds on the right side. The rifles performed flawlessly at Camp Perry and took its place in our nation’s history, but if it had made a bad impression on several thousand of our nations best marksmen, then things would have been very different.

Subsequent to the highly successful Camp Perry debut, and while trying to conduct what is now termed “failure fault analysis”, it was noticed that the production gun receivers varied from the prototypes and test articles engineered and designed by Mr. John C. Garand. Apparently, some bureaucrat in charge at Springfield Armory had the audacity to change the design specifications without consultation with the design engineer. The top of the two vertical guide ribs on the inside wall of the magazine well, just forward of the follower had been beveled off during the drilling of the barrel hole in the receiver. Replacing the metal on the ribs was found to eliminate the 7th round stoppage condition. As a result, the original design was reinstated, the tooling changed, and the 7th round stoppage became another historical footnote.

Some of the early production rifles as used for the demonstration at Camp Perry were also in the hands of the Infantry at Fort Benning. Although only a field expedient fix until such time as the corrected production rifles replaced their early-models, the troops continued to use the loading technique to ensure the 7th round was not on the right side of the clip. This is where the inculcation of the practice into the military culture occurred, and has since been propagated as a form of firearms legend.


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Mykl
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"If you really want to know what's going on;
then, you have to follow the money trail."
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

[Joefo]

Bob, The reason for loading the top round to the right was to ease a right hander in loading the clip in the rifle. At the same time a left hander should load the top round to the left. This is stated in the 23-5 Field Manual in chapter 3, paragraph 14. I guess it has a tendancy to cock one way or the other otherwise.

Joefo

 

[Bob Thompson]

Thanks to all of you who responded to my inquiry. Especially to Mykl for his experience and insight over the years of shooting my old Army rifle. After some surfing and reading Fulton Armorys web sight I picked up some useful information but nothing beats actual experience of the many fine TFL members. Thanks again, Bob

 

[fubsy]

I heard the "load so the top round is on the left" for a long time, and its a legend. the enbloc clips were loaded by a machine, so they would of course be the same everytime. remember the garand was a battle implement they could not have finicky feeding...fubsy.

 

[Joefo]

Fubsy, Read my previous post. It states the reason in the Gubmint field manual. Everyone knows that the Gubmint don't lie.<BSEG>

Joefo

 

[fubsy]

joefo,
I did read it, interesting info and your right we know they dont lie or we know they dont lie etc etc.......but think about what i said as well, a machine loads those clips, the machine will load those clips the same every time, Now I wasnt around back then, amazing I know, but its been my understanding that they always came packed enbloc. Ive shot a few loaded either way and never had a problem. But getting back to your post for a minute, a left hand loader?, hmmmmmmmm,,,,,ive never tried to load that rifle with my left hand, maybe ought to to see how it works......lol....later fubsy.

 

[Joefo]

Fubsy, I should have said a left hand shooter. I guess it could make a difference under stress conditions using a sling such as in a match or combat. I shoot high power once in a while and never had a problem. Then again I'm right handed and always load top round to the right.

Joefo

 

[Cat]

I like the top round on the right as it is more comfortable on my thumb while loading.
Cat

 

[othermarc]

IN my M1 clinic, I was told to use the right side, as Cat suggests, to ease loading for Right hand shooters. The instructor said some clips have a sharp edge and can cut your thumb, so you load on the side you will be pushing down on. Don't know if it is true, but I'll take his word for it.

Just called CMP today as they said they were not affilaited with my Club! Turns out they were looking at the wrong list. I should get it in a few weeks.

[This message has been edited by othermarc (edited September 13, 1999).]

 

[Danger Dave]

Bob, I used to do WWII reenactment, and have loaded a Garand from all sorts of weird positions (standing, laying low, on the run, etc.), without having time to pay attention to which way the clip was turned. What I've learned is it really doesn't matter which way the clip is turned (except, of course, which direction it's pointed ) - even with blanks (shorter and harder to feed with live rounds). In an M1, misfeeds with blanks are a rarity, and I've never had a misfeed with a live round (I have had some problem ammo & blanks, though - they feed fine, just weren't strong enough to cycle the action completely).

What does matter is whether the rounds are seated correctly in the clip - if the base of all the rounds aren't all the way to the rear, you will be likely (but not garaunteed) to get a misfeed. To prevent this, load the first 7 rounds in the clip (should put a little tension in the clip), use your hands to push the rounds to the back of the clip (some people tap the clip base on a table - I've seen too many bump the rounds out of the clip doing that, but it does work), then load the last one, being sure it seats to the back. Bump the full clip (hand or table) & look for spaces between the base of the round and the base of the clip - if you see daylight, pull a round out & start again.

Oh yeah - an old battle trick is to slide a clip onto the sling around the buckle for a quick reload (especially while you're on your belly). Just squeeze the rounds (in the clip) at the neck of the casing, & it will open up the clip a bit, then slide it onto the sling - be sure to put the clip to the right. When you're laying down, you can keep you're left hand on the rifle, and grab the clip and reload with the right - works great! Just don't put it too far on the sling - then it unseats the rounds (or jars them out of the clip - don't ask how I know) when you pull it off!

The M1 is a hardy, easy to use, and fun to shoot rifle. Everyone should at least shoot one!

PS - I'm sure you know about "M1 Thumb" - be sure and get that thumb clear of the bolt! I didn't know the mainspring is strong enough to hold the rifle up with someone's thumb is closed in the bolt, until I saw it done (everyone looks a little funny with a rifle hanging off their thumb)....

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Beginner barbarians probably had the idea that every house they broke into would be full of untouched loot and frightened, unarmed victims. It just doesn't work that way, my friend.

I hope these evil men come to understand our peaceful ways soon - My trigger finger is blistering!

 

[Cheapo]

Great post, Danger Dave!

I'd heard about a supposed combat field expedient of jamming the bullet noses of the loaded clip in the side of the stock to reseat the high round if you have to reload in a hurry and a high round hangs up.

Then I got careless before an RF string in a match, and saw that round #2 from the top was hanging out there in the breeze. Got a nice little hole in my stock, and the round DIDN'T get re-seated! Turned the rifle over, smashed the rounds in the clip on the bottom on the mag well portion of the trigger group (nice big almost flat steel surface), and proceeded with my reload.

Finished the string in time, and managed to shoot no worse than usual.

You _could_ re-seat the high round by banging the clip on your helmet, but that's a BAD habit to get started.

Back to the original question--I've passed out perhaps three thousand rounds of USGI M2 Ball from its original packaging at various club matches, and every clip in every bandoleer (1960s production) was loaded top round on the right. It's a 90 percent thing, as the world's Lefties can confirm for us.

 

[Danger Dave]

Cheapo, I think you're right about how the loaded clips came. I'll see if I still have some & double check. That trick of seating the round on the stock - I heard of it, too! I'm kinda surprised it didn't work, but not surprised it left a hole in your stock (I'm glad I never thought to try it). Maybe for your next shoot you should take a 6"x6" steel plate to lay beside you, or something like that. I wouldn't get in the habit of banging it on your helmet - could be painful if you forget to wear it to the range!

Most of the rounds I've fired out of an M1 were blanks, and they either came in .30 cal Browning MG belts or links, or in boxes of 20. Either way, you had to load the clips yourself. I never paid much attention to how the rounds were seated, only if they were. If I remember right, it's easier for a right-handed person to load the clips TRR (Top Round Right) than TRL.

I almost forgot - another good place to clip a quick reload is between the breast buttons on your M43 field jacket (you do have one, don't you?). Just don't forget it's there and dive on it (again, don't ask - ouch!).