M1 Carbine Sniper?

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Bigfatts

New member
This recently came into the shop, it's an Inland M1 Carbine with an M84 sniper scope on it. The mount looks to be original and not new production, it attaches in place of the rear sight and again to the bbl. The mount is marked 8247-39m1. The thing is in pristine condition, almost like it was unissued, the scope looks like it's almost new. It has the bayonet lug and cone flas surpressor. So what about these things, is this a real sniper gun or something someone cobbled together? Serial number for the gun is 6 digit and ends with 7418 if that helps. Scope serial is 17324. What can you guys tell me about this thing?

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wjkuleck

New member
What you have is the mounting bar for the M3 Carbine's Sniperscope infrared sight, evidently adapted to accept a 7/8" M84 scope. Details can be found on pages 640-641 of Ruth's War Baby II.

Now whether the adaptation to a conventional scope was done at a military depot, or by a civilian, may not be determinable. The use of the M84 scope at a time (early '50's) when superior civilian scopes were available would argue for a military adaptation. I believe that the M3 mount used the Redfield Jr. design, which, if memory serves, was also used by the M1903A4 sniper rifle. Thus, not only the scope but also the rings would have been readily available to an enterprising miilitary armorer. Well, or a really advanced collector :) .

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Walt
PS "M3" Carbines were all assembled from existing M1 or M2 Carbines with the Sniperscope equipment attached. Remember that Carbine production ended for good in 1945.

Regards,

Walt
 
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Bigfatts

New member
Thanx for the info guys, keep it coming. I'm trying to figure out what to charge for it. It actually is from the owner of the shop's brother's collection who has had it since the early 90's.
 
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T. O'Heir

New member
"...M1 Carbine Sniper..." No such thing. Even the M3 wasn't considered a sniper's rifle. That's somebody who just wanted a scope for who knows why.
 
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MacGille

New member
Au Contraire Mes Amis. I was a designated sniper on the Czech border during the cold war. I was armed with a carbine and infra red scope. I also had an optical scope but never used it. The sniper scope on the carbine had a limited range, and I was supposed to lay in wait for Russian Officers at night.

I am SOOO! glad I never had to use the thing because as far as I could see I would have gotten off maybe 2 shots before being killed. I qualified expert with the carbine (daytime) and could hit within 6" at 300 yd with it. Actually my personal carbine was more accurate than that. Point is that the carbine was definitely used as a sniper weapon in the Army. Whether it should have been is another tale.:)
 
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Art Eatman

Staff in Memoriam
The bulge in the stock in front of the safety looks odd. M2-ish. Is there a slot in the upper left side alongside the receiver for the selector lever?
 
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p99guy

New member
that isnt a standard M2 "Potbelly" stock...it has different, more pronounced lines

Here is a gov't arsenal( SA) produced M2 stock on mine
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Shot with PENTAX Optio S4 at 2005-01-29
 
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Bigfatts

New member
Is there a slot in the upper left side alongside the receiver for the selector lever?
Click to expand...

No, I haven't noticed any slot where a switch might have been. Took it to the Tampa gun show today and found one surplus guy that said it could have been a rifle that was pressed into service as a sniper gun and they put the M84 on it because it was handy.
 
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DMK

New member
The bulge in the stock in front of the safety looks odd.
Click to expand...
that isnt a standard M2 "Potbelly" stock...it has different, more pronounced lines
Click to expand...
This guy here has been looking for a T3/M3 stock for a while. Could this be a M3 stock?

(quote from his thread)
Darrell H said:
The T3 was a prototype for the M3 night vision carbine and most of the T3 rifles made by Inland (811) and Winchester (1100) were destroyed. The stocks were distinctly different in that they were thicker and more square looking on the front end of the fore grip than a regular M1 / M2 carbine stock.
Click to expand...




I don't suppose anyone could tell if that was a real M3 by the serial number?
 
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p99guy

New member
In the Larry Ruth book, "War Baby Comes Home" it has a section on the Infrared scopes..It dont have any detailed pics of the buttstocks, but that stock on biggfatts carbine is pictured on page 569 on a SCHV prototype carbine.

For sure biggfats has the M3 Mounting system, and top handguard with elongated slot cut inthe top.
 
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Bigfatts

New member
Hey, Bigfatts...how about taking a couple of steps back for another pic of the entire rifle. Purty please?
Click to expand...

I'll see what I can do.


that stock on biggfatts carbine is pictured on page 569 on a SCHV prototype carbine.
Click to expand...

You don't think this could be one of those prototypes do you? Is there any way to get more info by the serial number?
 
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Rifleman 173

New member
In the Korean War carbines were used for night time sniping, especially near fixed perimeters. When I was with the Army I came across some printed posters showing a 3 man team setting up to snipe with a .30 caliber carbine during the Korean War. One guy had the carbine, another a large battery sort of like a car battery and the third guy had the infared generator which was mounted above the scope. It was quite a set-up.
 
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p99guy

New member
Bigfatts..no it isnt a SCHV(small caliber High velocity) prototype...they had special test barrels on them that shot an experimental cartridge simular to what became the 5.7mm Johnson spitfire..a necked down .30 carbine that shot .224 bullets.

Its not a M3 stock either.

contact that Scott Duff guy, he will be able to help you.
 
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deuelr

New member
m1 sniper scope stock/mount

Hi, I am doing some research on the m-1 sniperscope and m-2 carbine that it was mounted on. I came across your thread during a google search believe it or not and read with interest the various replies to youir thread but all the pics have either been moved or deleted. Do you still possibly have the pics you took or can you tell me where they were moved to? I appreciate any help you can give me, pics and info on th4ese units are sketchy at best as they only made 2-3000 of the scopes which I thought were just mounted on the plain m-1 carbine. Thanks, Robert Deuel (deuelr2@verizon.net)
 
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Bigfatts

New member
Sorry buddy, that was a long time ago. I only took the pics to use for this thread. I had them in my personal PB account but when I left the gun shop I deleted all the pics. Sorry man. Good luck on your search.
 
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okie2

New member
My brother in law was in the group of marines that was trapped behind enmey lines in Korea (38th parrell) 1950. his weapon he carried was the m-2 carbine and he was not a sniper.
 
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Dfariswheel

New member
deuelr

There are several good books on the M1 Carbine series, including the M3 with infrared scope.
The USGI Ordnance manual also shows pictures and describes it.
A good book is "The War Baby".

Bottom line, the M3 Carbine was a modified version of the M2 full-auto Carbine.
The M3 had a special receiver with a built in mount for the scope. The mount was machined as part of the receiver.
They did not mount infrared scopes on the M1 or M2 Carbine.

US Ordnance records show only 1,108 M3 Carbines made by Winchester, and 811 made by Inland.

Here's a USGI Manual that shows the M3.
Note the information near the top about what user name and password to use.

http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/
 
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