M&P15T or Ruger LPR for boy?

[labnoti]

Boy's 12 and good with the .22LR, busting soda cans at 100 yards on the first shot. I want to get him a centerfire rifle for targets and plinking. At first, I thought of hunting-style rifles like a Tikka, but I don't need the light weight for carry. We shoot off a table with a bipod most of the time. Instead, I need adjustability.

The problem with the current rifle is the short receiver rail doesn't allow the scope to move far enough forward for the needed eye relief with the short LOP after I cut down the wood stock to fit (which doesn't fit me now).

An adjustable AR-style stock will drop to 12" LOP where he needs it, and a full-length rail will mount optics wherever they work best. I realize many guns can be modified with stocks and rails, but since I'm looking for a new rifle, I'd like to get what I need.

I've shot AR's, but I don't know the AR market and the relative merits of all the different vendors out there. For my purpose, it seems reasonable to choose an off-the-shelf rifle from a popular vendor like Armalite, Colt, Daniel Defense, M&P, Sig... I'm not looking for a bottom-priced deal or an ultra custom build, but I would be willing to put pieces together.

I could go with either a semi-automatic or bolt-action precision type rifle. The key things are adjustable stock, long rail for optics, and a good trigger. .223/5.56 makes the most sense to me for the low cost, low recoil, and with a 1 in 8 twist, it would be suitable for 200-300 yards and the type of targets, paper, cans, steel, soda... We'd be shooting with a scope and bipod. A shorter semi-auto carbine can be adapted to off-hand shooting in the next few years, whereas by then we'd want our precision rifle to be in 6.5C.

I know you all know more about AR's than I do. Is there a brand I should be looking at more than another?

 

[Kirosha]

My son loves his M&P 15-22. If I were to pick one for him, it only makes sense that I'd stick with the same manufacturer for his first 5.56/.223 AR.

That said, I've been recommending the Ruger AR556 MPR due to the low cost that can be found, $650 was the best I found in a quick search, in spite of the cost of the upgrades if you were to put it together yourself. Comes with a full length rail, two stage trigger, magpul furniture. Biggest plus to me is the rifle length gas system in a 18". Less felt recoil is a plus for the families willingness to shoot with me.

 

[labnoti]

yes, MPR is one I'd consider... just saw Hickok45's video on that from 2 weeks ago. It checks all my boxes, but not being very informed, I'm still looking for that advice from others.

 

[riffraff]

If you go with the compromise (adding weight and awkwardness) of an 18 inch barrel you may as well go with something thats got a rifle length gas system, should kick less... 16 inch should be a mid length.

Keep in mind its gonna recoil a lot more to a kid than us, look at it like yourself shooting .308, gonna want his face 3 inches clear of any protruding objects at a minimum.

If he is gonna be shouldering you may want to go with a very lightweight rifle, ie pencil barrel 16 inch and slim light handguard, more recoil but he will be able to steady it better. But if for the bench them weight is a non issue.

M&P 15-22 is great and light and all that but aint a centerfire.

I like aero stuff over buying say ruger or smith and wesson, quality same or better, features better, easier to maintain down the road if you want to replace things that are proprietary you can just buy the part.

 

[T. O'Heir]

What's your budget?
"...pick one for him..." You shouldn't be doing that. Even for a 12 year old.
"...which doesn't fit me now..." Doesn't need to fit you.
MSRP on the Smith is $1,159.00. It's an SMG(M4) clone too. Big kid's toy, not a serious target rifle.
If "LPR" means Ruger Precision Rifle(MSRP is $1599 and 24" barrel only in the 6.5.), it doesn't come in .223. So he needs to decide if he wants a .223 or 6.5. Mind you, it's also a bolt action. Different critter from any semi-auto. Far more of a serious target rifle.
"...merits of all the different vendors..." If it doesn't say Colt on it, it's a clone. Same thing otherwise.

 

[Kirosha]

What's your budget?
"...pick one for him..." You shouldn't be doing that. Even for a 12 year old.
"...which doesn't fit me now..." Doesn't need to fit you.
MSRP on the Smith is $1,159.00. It's an SMG(M4) clone too. Big kid's toy, not a serious target rifle.
If "LPR" means Ruger Precision Rifle(MSRP is $1599 and 24" barrel only in the 6.5.), it doesn't come in .223. So he needs to decide if he wants a .223 or 6.5. Mind you, it's also a bolt action. Different critter from any semi-auto. Far more of a serious target rifle.
"...merits of all the different vendors..." If it doesn't say Colt on it, it's a clone. Same thing otherwise.

Back in the day, Little Johnny didn't get to choose his rifle and yet little Johnny had no problems growing up a shooter. If little Johnny wants to have decision authority, he can pay for it.

Little Johnny isn't able to own a rifle till 18, even if we call it "his", really it isn't anyone's but Dad's. I shoot my son's guns all the time. My prerogative as the father, owner, and financier.

The M&P 15 Tactical can be found for $880 at my favorite online vendor.

I assume that he typo'd LPR instead of MPR. See my "He doesn't get to decide" concerning caliber.

If it doesn't say ArmiLite it is a clone. Minor modifications aside, Colt is only cloning ArmaLite. Colt bought the rights to the AR 10 and AR 15 from ArmaLite in 1959.

 

[labnoti]

I do intend to have him check out options at a Sportsman's Warehouse. They have the M&P, and both Rugers.

I did mean LPR, the bolt action. The LPR does come in .223. SW has it on sale now for $999 and it's in stock at the closest store. It might have been one of Ruger's distributor exclusive deals which they often do, and it's not necessarily on Ruger's website.

The MPR semi-auto is another one we'll look at.

It should be adjustable to fit me, because he'll be my size in a few years.

As for recoil, the LPR is heavy enough that's all it needs. In a gas-operated rifle, I'd prefer a balance of weight and recoil absorption by the reciprocating parts. I don't want the shortest, lightest carbine, but a MPR seems like the recoil would be reasonable. I don't think he'll be too recoil-shy, but I want him to be able to spot for himself so he doesn't lose the sight picture in the scope when it recoils.

As for original Armalites and Colts vs clones, it seems like that horse left the barn a long time ago. A lot of brands are outsourcing components anyway.

 

[Fishbed77]

If it doesn't say ArmiLite it is a clone. Minor modifications aside, Colt is only cloning ArmaLite. Colt bought the rights to the AR 10 and AR 15 from ArmaLite in 1959.

If it's a new rifle marked "ArmaLite," it's a clone as well, since today's "ArmaLite" has no relationship whatsoever to the division of Fairchild Aircraft who developed the original AR-15.

 

[Kirosha]

If it's a new rifle marked "ArmaLite," it's a clone as well, since today's "ArmaLite" has no relationship whatsoever to the division of Fairchild Aircraft who developed the original AR-15.

Plenty of companies do so, yet they are still recognized for their earlier products. Whether that be a negative, Charter Arms 2000, or a positive, today's Charter Arms.

 

[Fishbed77]

Plenty of companies do so, yet they are still recognized for their earlier products. Whether that be a negative, Charter Arms 2000, or a positive, today's Charter Arms.

I don't think you understand. The AR-10 and AR-15 were not "earlier products" of today's ArmaLite. The real ArmaLite went out of business around 1983.

The company doing business today as ArmaLite did not exist until 1996 and is not a continuation of that original company and has no relationship to it whatsoever. It is an all-new company that bought a dead name.

Saying today's ArmaLite is the original developer of the AR-15 is like saying today's Springfield Armory is the original developer of the M1 Garand.

It just isn't true.

 

[Kirosha]

Todays Charter Arms is not Charter Arms 2000 or Charter Arms from the 50s through 80s. I get what you are saying. But you don't, or at least I don't, think of it the way you seem to. Back and forth is pedantic at best, and distracting to OP snd others at worst.

 

[SamNavy]

Just food for thought... a normal 12yr old boy or girl is more than savvy enough to assemble an AR15 from scratch. Heck, you could probably just throw the bags of parts on the workbench along with an iPad and tell him you'll be back in a couple hours and it'd be done. He'll look everything up on YT and you'd just be in his way. Basic gunsmithing is a life-skill, look at it that way.

For the price of a mid-tier factory gun ($1200'ish), you can assemble yourself one helluva parts-list, and have plenty of money leftover for all the various tools that make the job easier (that he'll have for life).

You can do all the tools from ebay or Amazon for $150 depending on how fancy you get.
Upper and lower vice block
Barrel blocks
Brass punch set
Small ball-peen hammer
Skinny needle-nose (the really skinny kind)
Set of Allen keys
Basic screwdriver set
Torque wrench
Crescent wrench
AR15 armorers wrench

There are some other more advanced gunsmithing tools that make a couple of assembly job stupid easy... like a gas-block dimple jig... otherwise if you have a decent set of tools, you've probably got everything except the vice blocks already.

There are a couple manufacturers that have proprietary tools if you buy their parts... some come with the part when you buy it, some are extra. The ALG Defense rail wrench is one that comes to mind. But most rails can be installed with an armorers wrench.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-moe-ept-lower-build-kit-olive-drab-green-5165448690.html
This lower build kit is a stupid good deal... comes with upgraded Magpul furniture and PSA's EPT trigger, which is a big step up from a standard milspec trigger. This plus their $39 lower (must ship to FFL) and you're all set for a nice lower. It'll probably take you an hour to put your first one together... after that, they take about 20 minutes. You're certainly not stuck with that stock either... you can swap it out for something with more cheek-weld and adjustability in seconds.

For your first upper, you can buy it already barreled (barrel installed on the upper receiver and normally the rail installed too), but I'd still buy all the parts and put it together... part of the learning experience. Uppers can be assembled in less time than lowers depending on how savvy you are with torqueing down the barrel-nut (again, Youtube has all of this covered for you).
Upper receiver
Upper parts kit
Barrel
Rail
Gas block and tube
BCG
Charging handle.

One part I wouldn't skimp on is the BCG. It's tough to buy a bad barrel if you stick to known name-brands, but I'm a huge fan of nickel coated BCG's, they just seem to work better and are a breeze to clean. Fail-Zero coated BCG's are a no-brainer for the price.

 

[labnoti]

Idea of us assembling an AR doesn't faze me the least... I've done more technical builds for sure, and have extensive tools. If I left him to do it, this boy will ask me a million questions and drag his feet through it. His little brother is the one who'd have it together before bedtime.

It's the shopping for AR parts that bewilders me. I read build threads and I'm just totally lost. Geiselle, Palmetto, Hiperfire, Stag, Strike, Anderson... I never heard of any of those. I haven't done a thing with AR's since the early 90's and whatever's happened between then and now, I have no clue.

I figure I want an adjustable stock, and a full-length rail or even better M-LOK forend so I can put short pieces of rail where I need them. The brands, I have no idea.

 

[SamNavy]

Don't overthink brand names. A lot of "what company to buy" has more to do with how the gun "looks". If you want the easy answer, just buy the PSA LPK I linked above and ANY (literally, ANY) lower receiver from any company. You're not gonna find cheaper than $40 at PSA though. I personally like Aero Precision lowers, but have built 4 PSA's and they are quality kit.

The EPT trigger that comes in that kit is a strong upgrade from a regular milspec trigger. You can add a set of JP low-power springs to reduce the trigger weight for some more control... but you may limit yourself in ammo choice because some people say that JP springs won't ignite milspec primers in 5.56 ammo and most steel ammo. .223 ammo will fire just fine. At some point in the future, you can upgrade to a super fancy trigger from any of a dozen different companies... Geissele is kind of an industry standard. Another "upgrade" for your lower some day may include a more adjustable stock with more robust ergonomics, a larger cheek-rest, or whatever suits your intended purpose.

A NibX or other fancy-coated BCG is worth the expense. I have two TomsTactical (ie, FailZero) EXO coated BCG's and swear by them.
http://www.tomstactical.com/bolt-carrier-groups

The other important parts of the upper are the barrel and rail. ALG Defense EMR Mod2 rails are my idea of perfection, but there are a dozen others out there that look and function 98% the same, don't get caught up in branding, just stick with a good company that you hear referenced a lot, or ask here. Barrel choice is important, but for a bench gun, something in the 18-20" mid or rifle-length is fine... a target crown if you prefer, or a standard flash-hider. A muzzle break on a .223 bench gun is only useful in pissing off the guys next to you on the line.

 

[Fishbed77]

I get what you are saying. But you don't, or at least I don't, think of it the way you seem to. Back and forth is pedantic at best, and distracting to OP snd others at worst.

And yet you've continued the back and forth despite the fact that your initial statement is incorrect.

 

[bamaranger]

old school

Ya know, maybe its just me....but I would not be buying an AR type rifle for a 12 yr old. Sure levels of maturity and ability vary, but I think there is something to be said for the order of things .......one step at a time. I could "handle" my dad's car and pickup by the time I was 10-12, (bring my car up from the garage son!!!) but I never got a license 'till I was 16, (law) and my own car 'till I was 21( my grandad's '66 Buick). When I was 10 or 12, my dad bought me "my" first rifle.......it was a single shot, bolt action .22, and it could not be scoped, well, ...easily. It wears its factory irons to this day. I'd had BB guns, and had shot .22's from an early age, but no matter, an iron sighted single shot .22 was my official starter. Bamaboy started likewise, a bit earlier, maybe age 8-9, on a Cricket .22.

When it came time to step ahead to something bigger for my boy, , I bought a .223 MiniMauser. We fired it single shot. I handed him the cartridges for a while, one at a time. And I did scope it, it didn't even have irons. Kid killed two deer with it, perfect shots age 11-12, and we moved to something bigger. I don't think he shot an AR/AK till he was close 16. Garand and PSL too.

The OP states he has a "fitment" problem and cites the adjustability of the AR as the solution. That may be, but I would search for another answer myself. Personally, I'd look for an old .223 Handi-rifle, and a scope and a base and rings set up that would allow for proper eye relief. I'd also consider one of the versions of the Ruger American (affordable) or possibly a Rem Model 7. The Rem had youth stocks available at one time. When he outgrows the stock, an adult stock goes on.

None of these would be as cool or trendy as an AR, but to me, seems the logical "next step".