M&P 9mm: Who Do I Have Fix It?

[TunnelRat]

Hi all,
Some time ago I purchased an M&P 9mm, 4.25". While I have been very happy with the gun in terms of reliability (500+ rounds so far and not a single malfunction) and ergonomics (fits my hand well and my wife's too), I have serious concerns about the POI. Some might remember a similar thread where I complained that I appeared to be shooting low. While in a recent indoor range visit I thought that problem was proved to be gone, I now believe that is not the case.

Shooting some 250 rounds again over the weekend outside, I again experienced the "low and left" phenomenon. I even brought another shooter with me on the second day, one who is much more competent than I, and he encountered the same problem. This problem was manifesting at only 10 yards away from target, being about 3-4" off target at the 7 o'clock position if aiming at dead center. This gun uses the same Novak sight platform that my S&W 1911 uses and shooting that weapon at the same target in the same position I had no such problem (I understand the guns are different as is the caliber, my point is simply I have used this sight platform before).

If I look at the sights as mounted on the gun, they "seem" to be in line with each other (front to back), but both I and anyone I show them to (and I don't make my opinion known beforehand to keep from influencing them) seem to feel they are to the right of the bore axis. I will post pictures later, but it is quite obvious.

All this aside, I don't trust the gun at this point. As a range toy it's ok, but for anything else I am leery and my wife would like to use it for HD. My question is this: is this a problem I bring to S&W and have them take it in for repair? Were a part on the gun "broken" I would do it in a hearbeat, but I am not sure, nor do I know anyone, who has sent something in to S&W for a sight alignment problem. I am wondering if this is something I should bring to my local gunsmith and have him look at. Although I feel the S&W warranty should cover this, but I don't know.

Advice?
-TR

 

[Uncle Malice]

Call Smith & Wesson Customer Service. They will send you a pre-paid shipping label for you to fed ex the gun back to them. They will look it over, fix it if necessary, and send it. And it wont cost you a dime.

 

[TunnelRat]

@ Uncle
That's my first thought, just didn't know how much time a larger company would have to devote sighting in an individual gun.

 

[Uncle Malice]

Fear not, best customer service in the industry.

 

[SteelChickenShooter]

In my case I opted to sell off the pistol and let the next owner resolve it. Mine was already sent in once and that took way too long. My hair trigger was not to my liking and I found myself touching off a few rounds too soon. A better shooter might not see it that way, but I don't care. What's important is how it performs in my hands. I'll stick with my Glock 34 and my CZ P-01 and am bummed out with the M&P 9 Pro Series failing to work as well as expected. My advice: dump it and get a Glock 34. Replace the worthless factory sights with Warren Tactical. I do like the grip on the M&P better than the Glock, but the Hogue rubber wrap is somewhat acceptable. Side by side, A-B comparison, my Glock 34 hammered the plates and bowling pins as well as being spot dead nuts on paper. The same was not true for the M&P. I think I understand very well what you mean when you describe issues with POA / POI.

 

[TunnelRat]

@ SteelChicken
I knew you would show up on this lol.

I admit it's damn frustrating. I am no Hickok45, but I am not too bad and when you aim what appears to be dead on and keep missing, you start to get ******. I understand the frustration you had completely.

For me the trigger is ok, not superb but I like SAO so I don't expect a striker fire to compare.

As far as Glocks are concerned, I am terrible with them (at least in my experience so far). The grip angle is too abnormal for me, though granted I never tried a 34.

As far as getting rid of it, it hasn't been in yet so I have to give it one shot, no pun intended. I recently dumped a CZ 75B that had issues from day one and I somewhat regret doing that so I don't want to make the same mistake twice. In addition my wife really likes the grip and I want her to have something she likes, so getting rid of it becomes even more complicated. If I did get rid of it, I'd likely get a Hi Power.

 

[Uncle Malice]

FYI, add the APEX Tactical DCAEK kit to your M&P and the trigger is about as close to a 1911/Single Action Sig as you can get. It's very smooth, light and crisp.

You can also install the RAM kit to assist with a more positive reset(like what you experience with the Glock)

 

[theycallmeingot]

i wonder if you're battling a trigger control issue. i have the same gun, and have fired upwards of almost 5000 rounds through it. some days i shoot low left, for whatever reason. once, when i changed bullets and starting shooting way left, i thought it was the bullets. but after some serious work on trigger control, POI moved back to center.

FWIW, when i bought my pistol, the rear sight was already moved slightly to the right. except for off days, as described, it shoots dead on center. i've never shot to the right. if your sights are perfectly lined up, you might try adjusting them.

i'm not saying it's not possible that your gun needs sent in... but i would work really hard on making sure you're getting a good clean trigger break first. (it's harder to do with this gun than any other i've ever shot, btw.)

 

[TBT]

Take Uncle's advice and send it back to Smith on their dime. You'll get it fixed at no cost to you and in most cases it takes around a week or two to get it back.

 

[SteelChickenShooter]

If the OP does send the gun back, I'd be interested in the results. I wonder if S&W would replace the sights to correct the low hits. I wonder if it is shooter error? In my case, I admit I am not the best shooter. But the fact remains, I have too many pistols that are dead nuts on and I do not share that same shooting experience with the M&P that I tried. I'd like to follow up and offer a bit more info than I posted before: I enjoy pistol matches such as IDPA, USPSA, or IPSC, or whatever, and local Steel&Paper Challenges. My nephew has an interest in shooting along these lines. I bought the M&P 9mm Pro Series so he would have his own gun to shoot. However, when I tried it, the results were not so great. I'm not a "Glock Nut" by any means, or any other "Brand Nut" by any means. I'm sorry the M&P that I bought failed to perform as expected.

 

[TunnelRat]

@ theycallmeingot
You may be right. Thing is, I'd rather send it to S&W first and have them tell me that so I know for sure, as it won't cost me anything anyway (in addition I live within a comfortable ride from their main factory so I am hopeful on the turnaround). I want to rule out the mechanical issue before moving on to the possible user issue so I don't waste time trying to "fix" myself if that isn't the problem.

However I do agree with you that this is not the easiest gun for trigger control. I find it difficult to gauge the break point, and I wouldn't be surprised if that is part of the problem. However, my shooter friend that shot it is quite good at trigger control, and he experienced the same issue.

As for the sights, remember BOTH of them are moved to the right, fore and rear. This would mean that when I line up the sights on the target the bore is actually slightly to the left. I tend to actually shoot a little right with most guns, so I think that might be the left issue.

As for the low part of the problem, I am willing to accept part of it is me, but I don't think all of it. My front sight might be too high (the problem is noticeably worse if I put the target lower). Sometimes I feel like the front dot is above the rear two when the gun is level, but I could be fooling myself.

Again the S&W 1911 I have has the same sight platform and it works great.

@Steel
I will definitely give a report back as to what was found. Like you, I WANT to like the M&P as I think it could be a great gun. But a gun that I, or it, can't shoot straight isn't worth a lot to me.

 

[harly69g]

M&P issues

Go back to the range, make sure the first bend in your finger is on trigger.
The most times the problem is your finger dragging on the trigger guard when you are pulling the trigger.
I just did some research yesterday on why people shoot low & left.
Try that before you send it back.

Also you can have a trigger job done on it for better trigger feel or just shoot another 500 rounds through it.

 

[Uncle Malice]

make sure the first bend in your finger is on trigger.

That's actually not proper shooting technique...

The proper trigger pull should be with the pad of the index finger, ie - where your finger print is. The trigger of your gun should be at the center of the pad of the index finger, when you pull the trigger, the finger (the pad of the index finger) should move straight back.

Most people put their index finger in up to the first knuckle and pull. This causes the hand or finger to push the gun to the left as you pull the trigger. If you are shooting left handed the same happens in reverse.

Most of us (myself included) are not taught how to shoot properly. And it is hard to untrain from years of doing it wrong.

 

[C0untZer0]

I was having problems with follow-through when dry-firing my Glock 34. The front sight would swerve to the right. I kept inching my trigger finger farther and farther inward until the problem stopped. That's not how I shoot my H&K or other pistols - I definately use the pad, always have and with good results. It's not working with my Glock though, and I have a trigger kit in it.

My finger is just maybe ⅛ short of the knuckle touching the trigger.

The Glocks / XDs / M&Ps are odd beasts.

There is a whole thread on the Glocktalk forum that reads pretty much like this one "New Glock Owner - Accuracy Issues"

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1354879

I think a lot of what people describe as "getting used to" one of these striker fired pistols probably involves changing the way you shoot it, and maybe not in ways that you are conscious of.

 

[ET.]

Unless the gun is put in a vise, or at the very least, fired from bags there is no way of knowing if the sights are truly off. The second gentleman the OP brought with him to fire the gun might be more competent than the OP, but that might not mean much. I shoot a M&P 40 Pro & it is spot on at 15 yards. My friend shoots the same gun and it's low & left because he is anticipating the recoil &/or jerking the trigger...it looks like both to me, but I haven't been able to "fix him". The simple answer is to send it in to S&W, but it might come back "shooting low & left" if the sights are not the problem. I own a Sigma where at least half of the guys I let shoot it tell me that the sights are way off. The sights are not off. Their technique is off. Yet they say they shoot their guns well. I guess they must compensate for the flaws I see in their technique. Some guns expose flaws that other guns don't. Might be worth considering. Just saying...

 

[TunnelRat]

@ E.T.
I am pretty sure, no in fact absolutely sure, that I made allowances in following posts after the original that it could be my technique. I suggest you read my post before this one as it addresses everything you just mentioned.

If it comes back and I still have the same problem, well then I know it wasn't the sights. Process of elimination my friend, one thing at a time.

I do find it interesting on these forums that many people seem to take offense when you say a gun that they shoot isn't working well for you. If they shoot it well, it must obviously be a problem with you, can't in any way be the gun. Maybe that isn't the way you mean it, but I've noticed it on many threads.

 

[vyse.04]

I do find it interesting on these forums that many people seem to take offense when you say a gun that they shoot isn't working well for you. If they shoot it well, it must obviously be a problem with you, can't in any way be the gun. Maybe that isn't the way you mean it, but I've noticed it on many threads.

I think it's just that most people would rather rule out the shooter before sending the firearm in to be serviced. I agree that sometimes firearms can come NIB with issues and you may have received one. Let us know how it goes at S&W.

 

[TunnelRat]

@ yvse.04
I can see that, but ruling out the shooter isn't always easy and can likely take more time than ruling out a hardware problem with the gun. I'd rather eliminate the gun from the equation then work on me.

I also didn't particularly like:

The second gentleman the OP brought with him to fire the gun might be more competent than the OP, but that might not mean much.

So basically I suck, and my friend sucks slightly less? Gotta love the internet.

 

[C0untZer0]

I would shhot it from benchrest first, maybe I missed it in your post, but have you tried firing it sitting down with a sandbag (or something) to rest your arms on?

I'm going to be doing this with my Glock next range trip because I knocked my rear sights loose and I have to re-zero it. I'm not going to try that unsupported.

It makes a huge difference.

I think the brand-fans of any of these types of pistols underestimate how crappy the triggers are. And you never know what kind of standard they are using when they say "my gun is super-accurate". There have been people on this forum that have said stuff like that and they're making 3" shot groups at 20 feet or something.

That'll get it done as far serious business but I wouldn't exactly call that super accurate.

Maybe you try firing it supported and see if it makes a difference for POI

 

[vyse.04]

So basically I suck, and my friend sucks slightly less? Gotta love the internet.

I don't think they meant it like that. He was saying the only way to rule out the shooter(s) would be to fire from a rest. Besides, being good with one firearm doesn't always translate to being good with another in the span of a single range session. I wouldn't get all defensive about it though because none of us were there with you either. You asked for suggestions, and just about everything was mentioned from finger placement, firing from a rest, sending it in, etc.