While I was at school I got talking with a few guys that have made it over to Iraq some recent others a few moths ago. I was talking with a few guys that were telling me that Marines in Fallajah were taking 900 yrd shots and hitting their targets take it for what its worth. I know the Corps was teaching us to shoot at 500 meters but 900 yrds! If anybody has heard anything else please pipe in and let me know.
M-4's 900yd shots!?
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OneInTheChamber
New member
It is possible. I hit a 9'' round steel plate at 500 yards with a 16'' barrel, eotech (no magnification) sighted Bushmaster AR-15. Other than a free floated handguard and the eotech, nothing has been done to increase accuracy.
I could assume hits at 900 yards with an M4 are possible, but not routine. A lot of it would come down to the optics mounted on it. Also, they may not be COM hits. Luck comes into play.
We men over estimate sometimes on length.
I could assume hits at 900 yards with an M4 are possible, but not routine. A lot of it would come down to the optics mounted on it. Also, they may not be COM hits. Luck comes into play.
We men over estimate sometimes on length.
Do you know the difference between a fairy tale and a war story? Fairy tales start off "Once upon a time . . ."
But seriously, while the Marine Corps teaches marksmanship, and certain Marines may be capable of hitting a man at over 500 meters, 900m is the realm of sniper rifles and trained snipers. If you look at a ballistics table, a 5.56mm 62 gr FMJ bullet starting out a 3000 fps (an M4 would not start it out at that velocity) has dropped more than 16 feet from the 600m point of aim (more with an M4). This does not even take into account wind, but it would make it very difficult to hit a man-sized target with any repeatability. I was a Marine, I was trained to shoot 700m, and although Marines hitting targets at over 900m with an M4 may have happened a few times, it is not a normal day-to-day occurrence. At that distance you are just trying to lob one in on the enemy.
What your sources may have been trying to say is that the Corps started deploying snipers with every infantry company, and there were a lot of snipers in Fallujah, and more confirmed kills per sniper than ever before in USMC history.
But seriously, while the Marine Corps teaches marksmanship, and certain Marines may be capable of hitting a man at over 500 meters, 900m is the realm of sniper rifles and trained snipers. If you look at a ballistics table, a 5.56mm 62 gr FMJ bullet starting out a 3000 fps (an M4 would not start it out at that velocity) has dropped more than 16 feet from the 600m point of aim (more with an M4). This does not even take into account wind, but it would make it very difficult to hit a man-sized target with any repeatability. I was a Marine, I was trained to shoot 700m, and although Marines hitting targets at over 900m with an M4 may have happened a few times, it is not a normal day-to-day occurrence. At that distance you are just trying to lob one in on the enemy.
What your sources may have been trying to say is that the Corps started deploying snipers with every infantry company, and there were a lot of snipers in Fallujah, and more confirmed kills per sniper than ever before in USMC history.
pickpocket
New member
The way we delineate is by saying that with an M16 (16") you can hit a point target (read: person) at 550m and you can hit an area target (read:truck) at 800m.
The rear aperture doesn't go any higher than 800m, so anything beyond that you have to kentucky windage - thus it's highly unlikely to be making "one shot, one kill" at 900m with an M16, even if you're a scout-sniper.
To take Scorch's comment one step further, I would even venture to suggest that once you approach 500m you start to enter the realm of the sniper, because they're a lot more accurate.
Truthfully, 500m is pushing the limits of most Marines' abilities, especially since our cup of tea is close-in fighting - so that's where we spend the most effort.
It can be done - I just don't buy the story that it was done regularly with an M16...much less an M4.
I call BS.
The rear aperture doesn't go any higher than 800m, so anything beyond that you have to kentucky windage - thus it's highly unlikely to be making "one shot, one kill" at 900m with an M16, even if you're a scout-sniper.
To take Scorch's comment one step further, I would even venture to suggest that once you approach 500m you start to enter the realm of the sniper, because they're a lot more accurate.
Truthfully, 500m is pushing the limits of most Marines' abilities, especially since our cup of tea is close-in fighting - so that's where we spend the most effort.
It can be done - I just don't buy the story that it was done regularly with an M16...much less an M4.
I call BS.
Yes, tiny, starting out at 3000 fps, a 62 gr FMJ will go subsonic at 770m, just about 845 yards. An M4 does not start it out at 3000 fps, but a standard M16A2 will.
pickpocket- you know Marines don't lie! We prefer calling it selective memory. 800m for the highest sight setting? I used the M16A1, and we only had 500m of sight elevation for man-sized targets. Even my NM RRA A3 only goes to 600m, I believe.
pickpocket- you know Marines don't lie! We prefer calling it selective memory. 800m for the highest sight setting? I used the M16A1, and we only had 500m of sight elevation for man-sized targets. Even my NM RRA A3 only goes to 600m, I believe.
UniversalFrost
New member
900 meters to some is a not 900 meters to the rest of us. 
I never took a shot past 800 with my m24 while there and there were few that did. If these marines were actually taking 900 meter/yard shots all they would be effectively doing is giving away their position (unless of cousre they were corp snipers/marksman with m40's or barrets). As far as shooting with an m4 I would not take a shot past 500 with a mil spec with an ACOG mounted while in combat.
I never took a shot past 800 with my m24 while there and there were few that did. If these marines were actually taking 900 meter/yard shots all they would be effectively doing is giving away their position (unless of cousre they were corp snipers/marksman with m40's or barrets). As far as shooting with an m4 I would not take a shot past 500 with a mil spec with an ACOG mounted while in combat.
in a perfect world anything is possible,but no one can hit a man sized target with a M4 at 900 yards .now a trained sniper with a 50cal or a 7.62x51 or a .338 Lapua mag no problem .a 5.56 cal 62 grain bullet from a M4 or any weight 5.56 cal bullet from a 14.5 inch M4 is too light to stay on target ,the wind drift alone would make it a 1 in a million shot.
HorseSoldier
New member
The M4 rear sight only adjusts for ranges out to 600 meters versus the 800 of the post-A1 M16s. A stock M4 shooting M855 ammunition and making a 900 meter shot at anything smaller than, say, a building is purely into the realm of luck, in my opinion.
I have seen SOTIC instructors hit steel chest plates at 700 and 800 meters with SPRs and Mk 262 ammo . . . don't know how the Marines M16-based DMRs stack up against the SPR, however. A 900 meter shot would be asking a whole lot of the SPR . . . it would actually be asking a whole lot of a 7.62mm bolt gun (not impossible, but a low percentage shot even for very good shooters).
A Barrett or .338 would be the weapon of choice for precision engagement at that range, if available.
Some peopl are saying 900 meters and some are saying 900 yards, which is it? There is about a 75 yard (69 meter) difference there which could amount to a BIG difference in bullet drop. I think that if they were using that fancy new ammo with the 77 grain bullet at 900 yards it might just be possible as they have a much better ballistic coefficient, but I highly doubt that this is a regular occurance.
pickpocket
New member
There were a couple of times that I made 1000m shots from a Baretta M9. This one time there was a vehicle-borne IED that was approaching our checkpoint, but none of the gunners saw it, so I jumped up on a HMMWV, arced a 9mm round over the hill (I didn't have a direct visual of the target), skipped it off the roof of a house, ricocheted off the tire of a semi hauling lumber, and got it right through a gap in the driver-side window and hit the driver in the right eyeball. Dropped him dead, the car careened off the road and happened to detonate right in front of a suicide bomber - so I got credit for two kills that day.
Double Naught Spy
New member
Sure enough, and I saw that shot via satellite intel. I don't get cable. Toward the end of the flight, the bullet was going so slow, you could see it. Really. What Pickpocket could not see from his location on the other side of the hill is that the shot went in the right eye and out the left ear.
Buckythebrewer
Moderator
The 223 can do it(of course better with a 77-gr or better in a longer barrel say 24").The question I have is What were they using to confirm there hits???That is the biggest challenge.I have no doubt its possible because the 223 can and does hit well in 1000yrd competitions(That is groups,, ,A man size target in one shot is even easier if you know were to adjust for).I personally can group under 6" @625yrds with little effort..I believe if they had a good spotter and they were supported well and had an aim on something to adjust for what the spotter says there POI is, it would be very possible to pull this off.Sure the m4 suffers in velocity but I don't believe its enough to keep those bullets from getting there..The bullets don't have to stay supersonic to be accurate enough to hit someone IMO.
When I shoot @625yrds I get somewere near 6-7ft of bullet drop.I could quite possibly get a head shot 10 out of 10 shots because I know what I am getting for drop because I have painted a steal plate white about 2 ft square.When my bullet hits the plate I can see it clearly.What I am saying is,If you know were it is hitting and you know what you need to adjust for,, It can be done..I am not a sniper but I can hit inside of 6" @ 625yrds because I know were my bullets are impacting and I know how to take advantage of my rifle from learning long range accuracy.If these guys(even with all the velocity drop)have a way to steady the rifle on a rest and have someone telling them were they are hitting it is possible(On a dead calm day )to do what they are doing.Every time?? I doubt it, but probably more than we could imagine.Also take the distance into acount on the battle field.At that range the enemy probably doesn't have a clue were its coming.Im not saying I 100% believe it ,but In my experience with long range shooting ,,I wouldn't doubt that it could be done.I will admit that 600 yrds is alot different than 1000yrds so I'll leave room for the fairy tale scenario .
..The bullets don't have to stay supersonic to be accurate enough to hit someone IMO.When I shoot @625yrds I get somewere near 6-7ft of bullet drop.I could quite possibly get a head shot 10 out of 10 shots because I know what I am getting for drop because I have painted a steal plate white about 2 ft square.When my bullet hits the plate I can see it clearly.What I am saying is,If you know were it is hitting and you know what you need to adjust for,, It can be done..I am not a sniper but I can hit inside of 6" @ 625yrds because I know were my bullets are impacting and I know how to take advantage of my rifle from learning long range accuracy.If these guys(even with all the velocity drop)have a way to steady the rifle on a rest and have someone telling them were they are hitting it is possible(On a dead calm day
)to do what they are doing.Every time?? I doubt it, but probably more than we could imagine.Also take the distance into acount on the battle field.At that range the enemy probably doesn't have a clue were its coming.Im not saying I 100% believe it ,but In my experience with long range shooting ,,I wouldn't doubt that it could be done.I will admit that 600 yrds is alot different than 1000yrds so I'll leave room for the fairy tale scenario .pickpocket
New member
That was my point. We don't practice to shoot like that, and unless they were doing a LOT of plinking out in the desert, they don't practice like that either.
Sure, maybe you can do it - but how much practice did you need to get there?
Like you stated: 625yds is NOT 900m.
Sure, maybe you can do it - but how much practice did you need to get there?
Like you stated: 625yds is NOT 900m.
I've watched Marine Corp competitors on Viale Range at Camp Perry on the firing line at 1000 yards with M16's. They told us they used ammunition specially loaded to their armorers specifications with 80 grain bullets, but the exact recipe wasn't available for publication.
I've shot my Savage 10FP using the 175 grain Sierra Match King on that range, starting out at about 2650 fps. That gets to 1000 yards just barely above the speed of sound. The popular old standby 168 grain MK just doesn't have a high enough B.C. to do that, and falls subsonic at around 700 yards fired from a .308 with 24" tube. At that point it gets very unstable and tumbles and keyholes.
At 1000 yards, the 175 grain SMK from my rifle will be blown almost 8 1/2 feet by a 10 mph crosswind. I ran the numbers for the 80 grain SMK from the .223, and loaded up to about that same starting velocity from a 20" tube, (which W748 can do). It couldn't stay supersonic past 900 yards and was blown two feet further by that same 10 mph wind. The Berger 80 grain VLD, however, was able to duplicate the velocity and wind influence of the 175 grain .308 load almost exactly, despite firing from a shorter tube. It may be what the Marines were using? The special problem with it is that while the 175 grain .308 loads can be made to run in the usual 10" twist military .30 caliber barrels, the 80 grain Berger needs a 7.5" or even a 7" twist for good stability, and might tumble from a standard M16 barrel.
I've seen one story in S.O.F. featuring the confrimed longest sniper shot of the Iraq conflict. I believe it was 1000 yards? I can't lay my hands on the issue right now, or I would give more details. It would have been a Remington .308 shooting the M118 LR ammunition loaded with that 175 grain MatchKing.
While it is possible to make an M16 hit that far away, between special barrel and ammuntion requirements and the fact the little bullet wouldn't hit as hard as a .308 once it got there, it seem improbable anyone tries. A sniper needs a spotter with a powerful scope, and even then it is difficult to identify a target at that distance. Especially if there is any mirage. The CMP volunteers who are helping train Squad Designated Marksemen for the Army are being trained using a special version AR15 with an optical site. I don't know what the barrel twist on it is, or what ammunition they normally use in it? There is a photo and description in this article.
Nick
I've shot my Savage 10FP using the 175 grain Sierra Match King on that range, starting out at about 2650 fps. That gets to 1000 yards just barely above the speed of sound. The popular old standby 168 grain MK just doesn't have a high enough B.C. to do that, and falls subsonic at around 700 yards fired from a .308 with 24" tube. At that point it gets very unstable and tumbles and keyholes.
At 1000 yards, the 175 grain SMK from my rifle will be blown almost 8 1/2 feet by a 10 mph crosswind. I ran the numbers for the 80 grain SMK from the .223, and loaded up to about that same starting velocity from a 20" tube, (which W748 can do). It couldn't stay supersonic past 900 yards and was blown two feet further by that same 10 mph wind. The Berger 80 grain VLD, however, was able to duplicate the velocity and wind influence of the 175 grain .308 load almost exactly, despite firing from a shorter tube. It may be what the Marines were using? The special problem with it is that while the 175 grain .308 loads can be made to run in the usual 10" twist military .30 caliber barrels, the 80 grain Berger needs a 7.5" or even a 7" twist for good stability, and might tumble from a standard M16 barrel.
I've seen one story in S.O.F. featuring the confrimed longest sniper shot of the Iraq conflict. I believe it was 1000 yards? I can't lay my hands on the issue right now, or I would give more details. It would have been a Remington .308 shooting the M118 LR ammunition loaded with that 175 grain MatchKing.
While it is possible to make an M16 hit that far away, between special barrel and ammuntion requirements and the fact the little bullet wouldn't hit as hard as a .308 once it got there, it seem improbable anyone tries. A sniper needs a spotter with a powerful scope, and even then it is difficult to identify a target at that distance. Especially if there is any mirage. The CMP volunteers who are helping train Squad Designated Marksemen for the Army are being trained using a special version AR15 with an optical site. I don't know what the barrel twist on it is, or what ammunition they normally use in it? There is a photo and description in this article.
Nick
UniversalFrost
New member
FirstFreedom
Moderator
silicon wolverine
New member
Didnt SOF report last month that the canadian army made a 1750 yard shot with a .50 BMG rifle?
SW
SW