LongRange Setup

[PunchinPaper]

I am new to long-range target shooting..
I want to give it a try, but I need advice.
I have a Rem 700 30-06 I plan to use for starters.
I also have a 20 M.O.A Base and a Scope that has 36 M.O.A,18 up and 18 down. I handload and have a ballistic calculator.
The loads I have been using show I need 38 MOA of adjustment at 1000 yards. That is with the scope 1.5" above the bore.
I am not sure if the 20MOA base will give me 1.5" above the center of the bore for starters. Also I'm not sure on how to zero my set up. Do I just put put the base on and zero my rifle then zero my scope and go from there?
Like I said I'm new to the game any help is apericeated.
I know there are better calibers for this, I want to use what I have on hand for now.
Thanks

 

[Old Grump]

30-06 is fine and your drop will depend on a lot of things like bullet weight, shape, velocity, barometer, humidity, prevailing winds etc. Don't over think it you have a lot of shooting to do before you will notice the finer points and by then you will either have it down pat or will be upgrading.

Does your 700 have a match barrel?

If you can't get what you need for range adjustment a shim under the scope will give you a little boost. By the time you really get seriously into it you will know what you need just by interacting with your fellow shooters on the line. The good ones will tell you what works for them. For right now try to keep it basic and don't get all caught up in fancy hardware and gizmos. What you really need is a coach and trigger time.

 

[emcon5]

Don't over think it you have a lot of shooting to do before you will notice the finer points and by then you will either have it down pat or will be upgrading.

This is worth repeating.

 

[PunchinPaper]

Thanks..
I am shooting a 24" factory barrel.
This rifle will shoot sub MOA with almost every load I have tried.
I am mainly wondering how to set up/zero the scope with the 20 MOA base to get the most out of my combo? And how do I accurately measure my scope height with the new base? My ballistic calculator needs the correct scope heigth to give the drop chart.

 

[emcon5]

What I do is get a good Zero at 200 yards, then reset the knob on the target turrets so it lines up to "0" in Windage and elevation.

Then adjust the elevation for known come-ups for each given range.

I don't normally turn the knob for windage, but hold off using mil-dots as reference points.

Use a good ballistics program like http://www.jbmballistics.com and make sure you enter good data if you want a more accurate result.

Get your actual muzzle velocity, don't rely on published numbers.
Measure your sight height and enter it.
Enter the average elevation of the range you will be shooting.
Enter the an estimated temperature for the day you are going to the range.

Make yourself a dope sheet, like the one I posted in this thread, then reality check it and make notes when you actually shoot.

Most importantly, go in to it to have fun.

 

[Scharfschuetzer]

Good luck with your new project. It can get quite addicting and there are matches all over for 1000 yard shooters should you wish to get more involved with it later.

As you are using a scope, be sure that it has repeatable adjustments and good optics. A good spotting scope will also be of help. Your optics should be good enough to see the air (mirage) between you and your target. As suggested above a mil dot reticle is also a good investment. One mill is equal to not quite 3 1/2 MOA, so you can hold off by either MOA or mills.

For bullets in the 30/06, any of the 175, 180 or 190 grain match bullets should do. You want to keep your bullet supersonic at the target distance and the 30/06 can do this pretty well at 1000 yards. Most 30/06 barrels have the standard 1 in 10 rifling twist and that will handle the 190 grain bullets pretty well. I've also used the Berger 185 grain VLD bullets with good success in the 30/06.

Wind has a big effect on bullets at over a half a mile away. A good wind gauge will be most useful in judging wind speed and direction, but wind against the face, range flags, dirt and dust and mirage are all good indicators of wind speed and direction.

As Emcom suggests, make a shooting log for your rifle and record each day's weather, your load, sight settings, etc. On the job, we also keep track of the number of rounds through each rifle's barrel.

Do get the Army's TC 23-14 manual or FM 23-10. These will give you a good discussion of all the variables from temperature, air density, angles, wind and trajectory that you will want to bone up on. The USMC sniper manual is also a good tome with lots of good info.

 

[5RWill]

If you can't get what you need for range adjustment a shim under the scope will give you a little boost. By the time you really get seriously into it you will know what you need just by interacting with your fellow shooters on the line. The good ones will tell you what works for them. For right now try to keep it basic and don't get all caught up in fancy hardware and gizmos. What you really need is a coach and trigger time.

I second this, and coach will help you progress very fast if you can find one. You can do it on your own, i have no coach and do decent myself at the range. But i will be shooting with my Gunsmith whenever i find time, we're supposed to go shoot F-class, so he helps. So i'll get my first shot at 1000yds. Currently shooting at 600yds. Elevation is simple, doping wind is where the critics of LR shooting come into play. Of course getting there is more or less trigger time with proper fundamentals.

Snipershide is also another good source of information many knowledgeable people between the two forums. Only ones i'm ever on and care to be on. Not that there aren't other ones that are good i've just stuck with those two for quite some time now.

Zak smith (author of this article) is a member here and on the hide. He's very responsive to PM's and Emails and he could answer some of the more technical aspects of your questions much better than i can. He helped me a lot as to some choices and so on when i was first getting into it.
Practical Long Range Shooting Part III: Shooting

Out of curiosity what bullet are you running out of your 30-06?

As for zeroing I like 100yds. As emcon noted JBM is a very accurate ballistic calculator that will get you on target. Note you will want to keep a range log for different conditions you shoot in and how it affects your elevation due to powder and so on. Also if you have a smart phone there is a app called ballistic co-developed by bryan litz (berger's ballisticision) with all his recorded real world BCs in it. It's about 10$ but that way you don't have to wait for the internet with JBM, i find between the two JBM and Ballistic are pretty much equal and both work very well.

Most importantly, go in to it to have fun.

Again agreed. Getting results you want may take some time. I myself often put entirely too much stress on myself to exceed my expectations. I guess it's my progressive nature in shooting to always want to be better. But there will be times where I just have to walk away, cool off calm down. (I take it too seriously sometimes ) There are days for every shooter where it just isn't clicking, just remember to have fun. That might have been a note more for myself than you though lol.

 

[Dave P]

20 moa base is perfect for 600 yards. And I can't believe scope height will make any difference on your scope settings.

Get your rifle and scope and load set up, and sight in at 200 yards. From there , go up 16 minutes for 600 yards. Bet you will be on paper.

 

[emcon5]

And I can't believe scope height will make any difference on your scope settings.

Well, you believe anything you want. Doesn't make it true.

Here are the numbers for a .308 190SMK @ 2700fps, with a 200 yard zero, at 4400ft, 45ºF. The only difference is the sight height, as noted.

200 zero,
1.5" Sight Height.
-5.4 MOA/-22.5" to 400
-20.1 MOA/-168.1 to 800
-29.8 MOA/-312.4 to 1000

2.5" Sight Height.
-5.1 MOA/-21.5" to 400
-19.7 MOA/-165" to 800,
-29.4 MOA/-308.4" to 1000

Not a huge difference, particularly when using good high BC bullets, but there is still a difference. If you don't put good numbers in, how can you expect to get good numbers out?

 

[PunchinPaper]

My current loads use the 168 SMKs.
I'm proly gonna move up to the 175s though or something with a higher B.C.
I have some 180gr Hornady SSTs, I'm wondering if they would make the trip alright. I am open to ideas on the load as well, but I only have 38 MOA to play with as fas I can tell. So the load would have to work within my available MOA range. To keep things simple for me!

 

[itman]

The big thing you need is a Friend with a spoting scope. With his/her help you will figure it out.

 

[5RWill]

Spotting is a great value and helps a ton but isn't an absolute necessity. Steel targets and be able to call your shots, which you will do if you don't already should be enough.

Those SSTs will work but the A-maxs usually have a pretty High BC for a hunting bullet. If I was shooting a 30-06 i would be using berger, Sierra, lapua, or hornady in the 175-200gr range.

 

[PunchinPaper]

I do have a good spotting scope. I am going to be shooting a steel plate to start with.
I plan to get a box of 175 SMKs and probably some AMaxs.
My LGS normally carries both so that will probably be next on my list of components. I figured the SSTs would make the trip, I normally hunt with those so I may just save them for that. Im trying to keep my costs as low as possable for now. Thanks for all the help guys.

 

[Jim Watson]

One problem is that if you use all or nearly all of your elevation to get on target, scope construction can limit the available windage. And you NEED plenty of windage at Long Range.
You can get a more canted base but then you would not be able to get back down to a 100 yd zero. Some people don't care on a dedicated target rifle.

The 168 gr SMK is not the best or even a reasonable choice for Long or even Mid-range. I load the 175 in .308 but a heavily loaded '06 will handle 190 or heavier bullets.

 

[5RWill]

The 168gr SMK loses stability around 800yds. But for mid range (500-600m) it holds many many records and is one hell of an accurate and cheap bullet. The instability at long distance is mainly due to the steep boattail. IIRC it has a 13 degree boattail as does the nosler CC 168gr. Take a 168gr VLD which has a higher BC than the 155gr scenar and it will do fine. As well as the new 168gr hybrids form berger which i might add are quite impressive with a BC of .519. 168gr A-maxs work well also.

Here 168gr A-maxs out of a 16" LMT MWS at 1038yds and jugs of watter at 994yds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQtP8B03XuM&context=C3ea2a06ADOEgsToPDskKXJ1kHNVDPsSNowxxBg3IS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCfIjl7O8R8&feature=g-u-u&context=G2f24600FUAAAAAAAAAA

I mainly shoot the 175gr BT LRs but am going to try the 168gr hybrids next. The hybrids were designed to have high BC such as the VLD's but tolerate a jump to the lands. Take note not a major jump like that of a factory rifle would be. They were meant to be single fed but bryan told me if you had a short throated chamber you could possibly load to mag length and it would be fine. Granted it still might work with a long jump, just have to try and see. I run some 105gr VLDs out of a factory .243 that are seated at mag length and work fine.

This line of hybrids was designed in pairs having the same nose and tail:
155/168 requires 1:12" twist or faster
185/200 requires 1:11" twist or faster
215/230 requires 1:10" twist or faster

These designs were not intended for mag length operation, meaning 2.8" COAL for the .308 Win. If you have a long mag or seat the bullets way down they may feed, but the noses are quite long which is the reason for the higher BC. That and the 7 degree boat tail.

We are not planning a 175 grain Hybrid at this time.

Transonic stability will probably be poor for these longer than average designs especially at low DA, however the high BC's will maximize supersonic range. The hybrid design is a way to have your secant/tangent ogive cake and eat it too, but the transonic cake doesn't slice that way. You either choose short 'n stubby for transonic capability, or long 'n low drag for maximizing supersonic range but it will compromise transonic performance somewhat.

One last note, the 168 Sierra and the 168 Nosler CC which is a direct copy are the only bullets I'm aware of with the notorious dynamic instability problem. All other 168's I'm aware of from other makers are fine.

-Bryan

Here are the current .30 cal bullets i have. I usually run the 175gr BT LR, very accurate in my 5R. I have plenty of 5 shot 1/2 MOA groups and one 3 shot one hole group. Love that bullet. The 168gr VLD hunting is on the left which i have yet to try and the mid is the 168gr Hybrid, which you can see is indeed a long bullet. I've got some groups loaded up for them also, but haven't shot any. Given that you want to save money and maybe hunt hornady A-maxs sound perfect for you 208gr A-max should carry enough energy to take game at 500yds or so and get you to 1000yds easy, while bucking the wind considerably more than the lighter ones.

Sorry for the ramble and long post
From left to right: 168gr VLD, 168gr Hybrid, 175gr BT LR

 

[Scharfschuetzer]

Long Range Shooting Aid

One thing that I didn't mention in my original post is bullet trace. It is the supersonic disturbance of the bullet passing through the atmosphere. It can be seen through a good spotting scope by a spotter who is behind the shooter. While not as obvious as a tracer, a good spotter can see it clearly.

By watching the trace, a good spotter/coach can confirm your call as well as confirm wind calls and corrections or get you on target if you're not sure where you are hitting (not uncommon at this range). When shooting at 1000 yards, it is visible out to about 600 yards or so. I always loose it when the bullet reaches its max ordinate and begins it's downward drop into the target, but what I see tells a lot. Out to 500 yards you can see it almost into the target.

This little trick is used by the best team captains and coaches in the National Match Course in the team matches at all stages, 200, 300 and 600 yards as well as by good sniper teams. A good 20X spotting scope that has good resolution will pick it up. Focus your scope about 2/3ds the distance to the target to best see it. I've also used the trick when spotting for fellow shooters when shooting prairie dogs. It's fun to watch the trace into the target.

Our Mk 13 SWS with the suppressor installed allows the shooter himself to watch the trace as the rifle is pretty heavy and the suppressor keeps the muzzle flip down.

This ability to see trace is another reason for having the best optics that you can afford for long range shooting.

 

[PunchinPaper]

I have a standard 1:10 twist and I noticed the Berger recommends a 1:13 for their 175 BT LR. What twist do you get your results from?
Thanks again Guys for all the info!!
I can't wait to get out and try my hand at this!!

 

[5RWill]

I run 1:11.25 though i'm shooting a .308 i think they're twist ratings are for the slowest possible twist to stabilize the bullet and dependent upon barrel length. Because i've treated their bullets just like all .30 cal bullets. Although 11.25 will shoot 155s, 168s, and 175s sub-MOA. I haven't tried anything else. But 1:10 should be adequate for the .30-06 i would imagine. You should be fine.

By watching the trace, a good spotter/coach can confirm your call as well as confirm wind calls and corrections or get you on target if you're not sure where you are hitting (not uncommon at this range). When shooting at 1000 yards, it is visible out to about 600 yards or so. I always loose it when the bullet reaches its max ordinate and begins it's downward drop into the target, but what I see tells a lot. Out to 500 yards you can see it almost into the target.

This little trick is used by the best team captains and coaches in the National Match Course in the team matches at all stages, 200, 300 and 600 yards as well as by good sniper teams. A good 20X spotting scope that has good resolution will pick it up. Focus your scope about 2/3ds the distance to the target to best see it. I've also used the trick when spotting for fellow shooters when shooting prairie dogs. It's fun to watch the trace into the target.

Our Mk 13 SWS with the suppressor installed allows the shooter himself to watch the trace as the rifle is pretty heavy and the suppressor keeps the muzzle flip down.

This ability to see trace is another reason for having the best optics that you can afford for long range shooting.

Agreed. I pick up the trace sometimes when the rifle recoils just right doesn't throw me off too much. Shooting about an 10lb .308. I had a 600yd shot and watched the round strike the dirt 2 Mils to the right and then adjusted accordingly. Gotta love FFP scopes I don't see the trace that often though i would love too it's fun to watch.

 

[tobnpr]

Have the same issue with a Nitrex I just bought, I didn't realize the adjustment was so limited at 30 moa (the 1/8 clicks are nice, but at a cost, it seems).

Whether you'll make it to 1000 with that optic and base is too close to call, I just did the same thing, swapping out a zero degree EGW base on the Savage .308 for a 20 minute base.

I didn't pay attention before the swap-out as to the position of the reticle at it's 100 yard zero. No rifle is perfect, if you (and I) are lucky, the scope will be "down angle" in addition to the base just due to the rifle itself, and you'll pick up a little bit more elevation adjustment. The opposite can hold true too- where you need "up" adjustment beyond the mid-point of the scope just to be able to zero, which eats it up and you end up with less than you "should".

Go with the highest BC bullet you can find, and load it for the best combination of velocity/accuracy you can come up with.

 

[5RWill]

Ouch 1/8th MOA.. i have a nikon with that and i guess there is a line that i draw when something is too precise. Sure if your shooting benchrest or F-class and groups is what matters it makes sense. But i just kept thinking it's going to take me 72clicks for 12 MOA... and no zero stop

I too prefer higher BC over speed. For instance someone may get less drop pushing a 155gr Scenar at 2890fps but my 175gr BT LR bucks the wind better, and the 155gr scenar isn't retaining that much velocity over the 175gr BT LR at 1000yds. Especially if you were to consider trying Alliant MR-2000. I've seen .308 results of launching 175gr bullets at 2700-2730 no pressure signs. It's quite impressive really. Granted i know we're talking .30-06. Be sure not to go too heavy the 240gr SMK has a BC of .7xx but the likely hood of a .30-06 getting it to 2500fps is slim.

"Muzzle velocity is a depreciating asset, not unlike a new car, but BC, like diamonds, is forever.” - German Salazar