Long throat and bullet seating

Red_Eagle

New member
I picked-up a Remington 700 SPS-Varmint today. I was working out the seating depth with my Soney Point. A 155 match king barely has .050 to hang on to, and by the time a 125gr Nosler BT hits rifling it's out of the case:eek:
I'm guessing any bullet I use is going to have to make about a .050-.100 jump. How do you suppose that will effect accuacy? I had to seat-out a little with the 243 Iused to have, but I've never seen a rifle with a throat this long.
 

Red_Eagle

New member
I just re-checked it. Ongive length to the rifling is 2.368. Max COL in the Seierra manual is 2.775 (2.198 when measured from the ongive). thats about 0.170, or 1/8" worth of free bore. Thats a lot even by Roy Weatherby's standards. I read over your previous post, but understand how I'm supposed to get any kind of accuacy out of this thing with that much free bore.
 

Shoney

New member
Have you considered the 165-168 gr bullets?
or even 175's???

I have experience excellent accuracy to 600 yards with bullets set at magazine lengths much farther from the lands than 0.170 :eek:. And I have worked loads from 0.050 to contact with the lands that won't shoot any better than factory length????? Go figure.

Aint it fun to get yer ol' pucker string tight.:D
 

pilot_teacher

New member
My Savage 10 243 has a throat 1/2" in length and I can't seat bullets out. Even a 100 gr only grip about .1"

The biggest pain is I can't get close to book figures because the pressure drops as soon as the bullet leaves the neck and makes the jump to the groove.:mad:

Either I replace the barrel with something else or have my gunsmith take off about 1/2" off the thread end and cut the chamber accordingly. It'll make the barrel 1/2" shorter but so what!

I called Savage but they are closed for vacation and will re-open on 7/13.
 

Nnobby45

New member
Had a M700 '06 with a long throat. Couldn't get a bullet close to the lands, so I just made sure the bullets were seated deep enough to be secure. It was a 1.5 MOA rifle, and never lacked for enough accuracy for any big game I ever hunted with it.

Also have a M700 VS that, again, wouldn't allow bullets to be seated into or close to the lands. Lots of freebore. No, it wouldn't shoot .5 MOA, but 3/4 to 1 MOA made it just fine for everything from squirrel's to coyotes.

Eventually, had the barrel set back and chamber re-cut to get closer to the lands. Not much difference.
 

GeauxTide

New member
I haven't found any problem in my two long throated rifles. My .338-06 is throated for 250 Noslers and my 6.5-06 is throated for 140 Sierras. I use 200gr Hornady in the 338 and 129gr Hornady in the 6.5. Great accuracy and 2800fps in the 338(22") and 3100 in the 6.5(24"). BTW, I owned a 7mm Weatherby when I started loading in the 70's and I could push 154Hornday's to 3200fps.
 

Roy Allain

New member
Long throat

Red Eagle. You have to remember this is a factory rifle and it WAS chambered to accommodate any possible brass/bullet combination the user may shoot.

If you feel that you're restricted to a certain col, then have the barrel set back 1/2" or whatever your smith says it should be and have it rechambered. Maybe even with a tighter chamber which will open up all kinds of new accuracy avenues. Good shooting.

Roy
 

longranger

New member
The latest fad in rifle building is to have fast twist barrels with long throats to accommodate heavy for caliber bullets.If you want to shoot light for caliber bullets in a long throat,accuracy is what you give up.Shoot heavier bullets.
 
Red_Eagle,

You're starting out with a false premise. The idea that you have to get a bullet close to the lands for good accuracy is untrue. Some rounds actually work much better with the bottom edge of the bullet bearing surface seated about one caliber into the case mouth. This seems to be more true of light bullets than of heavies, but every gun is a law unto itself, and you just have to experiment to try? To find a seating depth sweet spot, you will have to experiment, but I would start with 1 caliber into the case mouth and, using a mild starting load, seat both deeper and shallower in 0.010" increments until you find minimum group size. Once you have that, start tuning the powder charge to shrink the group further. When you know what your sweet spot depth is for a particular bullet, measure that with the Stoney Point tool and keep a record so you can replicate it with future setups.

The main advantage to seating just off the lands, a common practice with match chambers with their short throats, is that the bullets can better self-align in the throat of the bore so the tip is cenetered in the bore. Slight bullet tipping on entry to the throat can cause up to a moa or so of group size increase. There are, however, other strategies for getting good bullet alignment, base on getting the bullet lined up properly in the cartridge case in the first place. A good start is to use a sleeved match seating die such as the Redding Competition Seater Die. Other brands, like Forster, make these sleeved seating dies, but my only experience is with the Redding, which is wonderfully accurate. My plain seaters allow up to 0.008" total indicated runout (TIR), while the Redding allows maybe 0.0005" TIR if my cases are perfect. If the case has uneven neck wall thickness, that reads as added TIR on a gage, so don't be fooled by that. You will want to buy or build a cartridge runout gage to check your ammo.

Another helpful strategy is to neck size-only so the fireformed cartridge case centers itself in the chamber. If you leave the last little bit of the neck unsized just ahead of the shoulder, that will center the bullet in the neck portion of the chamber. The Lee Collet Dies, though a little tricky to learn to work with, will do that for you, and they are inexpensive. The only issue I've seen arise with this is when a chamber is slightly off-axis from the bore. You can address that by always loading your cartridges with the headstamp in the same orientation in the chamber. Neck-sized rounds need to be loaded singly anyway.

The figure of an moa group increase from bullet tilt that I gave comes from a study in the out of print NRA book, Handloading. It was done with M72 match ammo, IIRC. This was .30-06 that was new Lake City ammunition, not reloads, and not, obviously, fireformed to fit the rifle chamber. Nonetheless, by measuring cartridge runout and shooting 800 some rounds in the test, they found that 0.004" runout could make that much difference on the target. More runout than that did not make it any worse as the bullet could straighten itself out from tilts above that number. This was a 173 grain boattail match bullet, very similar in shape to the 175 grain Sierra MatchKing, though less well made. Seating depth was within SAAMI maximum 3.340" for .30-06, yet the match rifles shot them very well.

Below, I'll post my bullet nomenclature diagram just so anything I mentioned above about where the seating goes is clear.

bulletnomenclatureonly2.gif
 

Red_Eagle

New member
The latest fad in rifle building is to have fast twist barrels with long throats to accommodate heavy for caliber bullets.If you want to shoot light for caliber bullets in a long throat,accuracy is what you give up.Shoot heavier bullets.


Unfortunately in this case that is not possible. Since it's supposed to be a varmint rife, Remington decided to give it a 1/12 twist rate.
 

Antihero47

New member
Remington factory rifles pretty much give you a lot of free bore. My SPS Tactical has a lot. I am getting 168g and 175g right where I want them lands wise, but 150 and 155's do not care to fly where I want them as far as they have to be. Fortunatly I was lucky with the 1-10 twist.

You may wan't to try out some 168's or 175's. I dont know how much the extra 2 in twist rate will affect it much. All you can do is try.
 

mrawesome22

New member
It's amazing how much QC Remington has over their rifles. I bought a VLS a few years ago then a VLSS last year and the throats are EXACTLY the same. Not even .001" off. EXACTLY the same. I wish there wasn't a long, blunt nosed, 22 caliber bullet. Then all the engineers could make the throats shorter. It's not their fault though. Some people like to shoot deer with their 22 cals.
 

Shoney

New member
Red_Eagle
Two well known barrel makers list the 12 twist as ideal for:

Shilen: for bullets up to 170gr

Lilja: 140gr - 180gr.

No!you will not get that fine red mist with any of these, but the accuracy of the 170-175 should be outstanding.

If you want to see spectacular down range performance on prairie poodles or gophers, a 220 Swift or 22-250 is what you need.
 

Nnobby45

New member
Red Eagle. You have to remember this is a factory rifle and it WAS chambered to accommodate any possible brass/bullet combination the user may shoot.

Basically correct, but not always. I've seen rifles with short throats so that heavier bullets had to be seated deep. And other rifles with enough freebore so that long bullets can't get near the lands.

The purpose of freebore, at least in some rifles (like Weatherbys) is to reduce pressure. As P.O. Ackley put it, you reduce pressure, but also velocity. If you handload, you can increase the powder charge to make up for it. It's not a bad thing, but what does it accomplish in a huntint rifle? I think there's just a wide spec, within which, they build them.
 
Last edited:

Newtire

New member
lo-o-o-n-g throat .243 Taurus Trifecta

I picked up a slick looking little set a week or so ago and it was giving me fits. It is a three barrel youth rifle that includes a .22 L. R. barrel, a .243 barrel, and a 20 gauge. The Tuarus Trifecta...Thought it might be something to keep in the trunk.

As it turns out, the .22 is somewhat accurate, the 20 gauge is nice, but the .243 wouldn't hit a 15 inch square of paper at 100 yards.

After fussing around changing scopes & everything else I could think of, I finally dropped a bullet down into the breech and pushed a sized case up against it. The case finally reached the bullet with about 3/16th inch of case left sticking out of the chamber.

I live close to a range so next morning packed things back up with some longer seated bullets which were about .050" off the lands and actually managed to get a 3" group. I have now loaded a batch of bullets just .010" off the lands to see if this improves things any. They are .300" longer than the longest seated .243 bullet in loading manuals! Varmint bullets are out of the question.

I see these reviews of where the guy says he couldn't hit anything with this POS rifle and now I know that it's true. We just had a CVA Stalker in .444 out to the range sighting it in for a friend. With 250 grain Gas Checked pistol bullets at right at 1700 FPS, we got under 2" groups. No freebore wanted with cast bullets. I think that ridiculous freebore had alot to do with not hitting even the target at 100 yards. Stay away from the Trifecta!
 

Jim243

New member
Red Eagle,

You said it was their Varmint rifle? That is strange since I am unaware of a varmint rifle in 308 caliber. Most are in 223 or 22-250. Remington list the 1:12 twist for only their 223 rifle.

It shows the 308 as a 1:10 twist. Are you sure about the twist rate??

If indeed it is a 1:12 someone at the factory messed up and should replace the barrel free of charge for you.

Jim
 

Mike / Tx

New member
Just basing this on my personal experience, trying to seat bullets to or into the lands is highly over rated with regards to accuracy unless your single loading and have a rifle custom built for the accuracy your seeking.

In hunting rifles I load for the magazine length period. Some bullets need to be seated deeper than others even using this method, due to the very sharp pointed plastic tips which can and do sometimes hang up in the gap between the magazine and the chamber when shoving the round into battery.

That said, I have had plenty of great shooting groups and none of my loads are within .030" of the lands on any of my rifles. Just like when your working up loads and the powder charge will usually give you two nodes of accuracy, so will seating the bullets. It is all in the dynamic vibrations with the barrel.

I usually work up a load until I either get to the top end or hit something with pressure I don't like to see. Then I will start with what ever the best group I got was and start seating the bullet in .005" at a time. This will usually give me my best overall accurate load for that combination.

My close friend and hunting pardner worked on loads for his 300 RUM on a Sendero platform for close to a month. We tried everything, all the most recommended powders, and highly touted bullets. He was chasing the up to the lands thing and nothing was grouping under 2" at 200yds. Finally in disgust and me almost picking up a new rifle to play with, he set his OAL to what his manual stated. Same load shooting just over 2" at 200, dropped to less than 1" at 300. I was a bit disappointed that I wasn't getting a new rifle, but at the same time was elated that what I had tried to tell him worked out great for the load. To date that same load has consistently shot like that for him and he has put the hammer of Thor down on many a feral hogs head.

To get a better explanation on this you might read through the following links,

Optimizing Precision Accuracy With VLD Bullets - by Eric Stecker

Optimizing Precision Accuracy With VLD Bullets - by Eric Stecker - (Discussion)

This not only works with Berger bullets but with all bullets to some degree. It is simply matching the harmonics as I mention above but in a more well written format.
 
Top