LONG RANGE

[Pointer]

As I understand it, every major rifle manufacturer makes a Long Range rifle, i.e. Remington makes the Sendero...

QUESTIONS:

• How do I find out what the other manufacturers offer in off-the-shelf long range rifles?
• Which is the better platform to build on, a 700 SPS or a Sendero... or?

I want to pick a rifle and a cartridge and scope combination which is versatile... At the moment I am thinking, Rem 700, 300 Win, Heavy sporter barrel and a Vortex Viper 6-24 PST scope.

Example:

• A hunter's carry stock with sniper functions and adjustments.
• A barrel that doesn't need to be replaced.
• A cartridge which allows me off the shelf variety and accessibility.
• A scope that allows me to SEE the Point of Impact at 1000 yards.

Please make your recommendations... and purify my "blueprint".

 

[hounddawg]

this is just going to start another Remington vs Savage flame war but I will address this

A scope that allows me to SEE the Point of Impact at 1000 yards.

it ain't going to happen, you might be able to see a .30 cal hole in your target at 300 to 400 yards with a 60 power spotting scope but even that will take the right lighting conditions unless you are shooting painted steel in which case any 12-16 power scope will suffice. You can probably see the dust puff off the berm if you are a good enough at recoil management but that still won't tell you where you hit. Why do you think military snipers and LR shooters use spotters to watch the vapor trail?

 

[Pointer]

I meant that the reticle didn't cover the target and allows me to see parts of the animal rather than the whole animal... as in head or boiler room, or antlers etc.

I probably should have said intended POI.

 

[hounddawg]

my apologies then, but 500 - 600 is considered extreme range by deer/elk hunters. Only people that I know that would attempt hunt anything at 1000 would be varmint shooters. You might want to go browse some sites that specialize in LR hunting.

 

[Mike38]

At one time I thought seriously about the Remington 700 LTR (Long Range Tactical) in .308. Unfortunately, money has been tight the past couple years so the thought has been put on the back burner. Maybe someday?

 

[Pointer]

Not necessary.

I'm hoping people will say, I like the Sendero or I like the Savage model, or the Kimber etc.

Also, recommending their favorite 1000 yard scope and reticle or turret system?

Or the 300 RUM is a more useful choice than the 300 WinMag or even the 300 LaPua ...????

Actually I think maybe any quality rifle is capable of taking the 1000 yard elk...with the right cartridge, but I am hoping you all will say that this or that magnum is better than this one for the following reasons.

 

[Pointer]

500 - 600 is considered extreme range by deer/elk hunters.

That's what I want to hear... realistic common sense.

However, I want to hunt at ranges under 650 with a gun/scope that would do the job at 1000.

It sorta soothes my more-is-better complex.

 

[kraigwy]

A hunter's carry stock with sniper functions and adjustments.

Sniper Functions???? That's a shooter not a stock. Don't know quite what you are looking for, a prone stock? an Across the Course Stock? Off hand stock??? Position Stock???

A barrel that doesn't need to be replaced.

That will depend on the caliber and how much you are going to shoot it. On my 1000 yard 300 WM I set the barrel back ever season and rebarreled it ever third year, depending on how many matches I shot.

A cartridge which allows me off the shelf variety and accessibility

Don't understand, are you taking about Factory Match loads, or hunting loads you can buy any where.

A scope that allows me to SEE the Point of Impact at 1000 yards

There isn't such an animal. If you try to get the power high enough to tray, you'll wash out the target with mirage. Not to mention the heat waves of the barrel.

What you really need is about three or four rifles. No one rifle will do everthing. That's why I have a "Poop Pot" full of rifles.

 

[Pointer]

(Long Range Tactical) in .308.

Mike, this says "anti-personnel" to me... probably great for deer and smaller, but I think maybe at great distances, something bigger is needed for larger critters and the bigger/heavier 190 grain+ bullets will stay on trajectory better and provide better terminal performance as well.

 

[Pointer]

Don't know quite what you are looking for

Adjustable cheek rest and butt stock... flat bottom forend (Beavertail?)
At the same time not an "oppressive" burden to carry in the woods.

A barrel that doesn't need to be replaced.

Apparently I have much too learn... I meant buying an off the shelf rifle and then putting a high grade barrel and stock on it.

off the shelf variety and accessibility

"Store bought"... I don't want to be required to hand load because poor availability dictates.

 

[Pointer]

Thanks Everyone

Thank you all... I apologize for not making myself more clear.

 

[kraigwy]

Maybe I misread your post, I see now that you want a 1000 yard elk round.

I don't hunt at 1000 yards, would never attempt it. Having said that I do shoot 1000 yard matches so I'll take a look at my Model 70 300 WM 1000 yard rifle.

I shoot 200 Grn SMKs, Sighted in at 200 it drops about 265 inches at 1000 yards. the remaining energy is a tad over 1000 ft lbs. (marginal for elk).

It drifts about six inches per MPH of wind. That means a 5 mph wind will drift the bullet 30 inches, enough to miss or worse yet wound an elk.

Normally you adjust for wind mid range. Thats on a rifle range. In the mountains (where elk live) its a bit different. Wind goes every which way. So it dosn't take much to be off your wind call a bit.

Being off the wind call just a few MPH means a miss or again, a wounded animal. If the animal is wounded, by the time you hump the 1000 yard to where you hit it, its gone, Off to die a painful death.

I like long range schooting. I've done a bit. If I scew up a bit, at the most, I get a miss. Loose a few points, but I dont have any wounded critter crawling off to die.

 

[Pointer]

kraigwy

I said...

I want to hunt at ranges UNDER 650 with a gun/scope that would do the job at 1000.

I have no intention of trying to kill an elk at 1000 yards.

You said....

I shoot 200 Grn SMKs, Sighted in at 200 it drops about 265 inches at 1000 yards. the remaining energy is a tad over 1000 ft lbs. (marginal for elk).

Try zeroing at 600 yards makes for a better trajectory.

I shoot 200 Grn SMKs, Sighted in at 200 it drops about 265 inches at 1000 yards. the remaining energy is a tad over 1000 ft lbs. (marginal for elk).

It drifts about six inches per MPH of wind. That means a 5 mph wind will drift the bullet 30 inches, enough to miss or worse yet wound an elk.

Thank you... this is useful information!

 

[AZAK]

What you really need is about three or four rifles. No one rifle will do everthing.

I am in agreement with kraigwy.

From what I am reading, you are looking at multiple rifles for multiple purposes.

Typically hunting rifles are not set up as long range precision shooters. I guess that it does depend on what you are hunting, and how you are hunting (sitting next to your vehicle or packing your gear up a mountain).

For what it's worth I bought a Remington 700 SPS varmint in .223 remington last year. Out of the box I could get down to .3 MOA. After putting a Jewell trigger in it set at 1 lbs. I can get down to .25 MOA. Great rifle for working on my technique and fundamentals and punching: paper, 550 steel gong, and smaller sized critters out aways. (This is a sample of one, and I feel very fortunate that this rifle came out of the box this way.)

Where I live I can only easily reach out past 200 yards during the Winter, working out to 600 yards this Winter; as the water has to freeze up for me to be able to travel out that far on a flat area. I shoot year round outdoors.

This rifle is heavy. Aside from the rifle there is: Harris bi-pod weight, and that Vortex 6-24; great additions, love them both, but adds the weight.

Moose season comes, you would never see me lugging something that was that heavy and cumbersome up the mountains and through the brush; where I live in the late summer/fall lucky to see 100 yards, lots of trees and bushes.

My hunting rifles don't get down to .25 MOA, but they don't need to. They are lighter, easier to handle in brush/shorter and lighter barreled and only have 3-9 scopes/set on 4 unless there is a reason to change it. And work well for what they do. Longest shot that I have taken hunting big game is about 275 yards; and I have hunted elk in Montana.

I am firmly of the mind of one shot = one humane kill and have passed on many animals over the years because of this.

I know folks who hunt out at the distances you are talking about: 650 - 1000 yards. A friend of mine shot a moose seven times like that before it went down. I personally ethically don't agree with this.

I shoot targets year round outdoors sometimes even at the distances you are talking about (very much still learning and working on it) and also hunt year round outdoors and have never shot past 300 yards while hunting.

YMMV

 

[Fullboar]

Try zeroing at 600 yards makes for a better trajectory.

It doesn't matter where you zero your sights the trajectory will always be the same.

The problem with zeroing a rifle at 600 yards is you would probably miss everything up to around 550 yards (ie: its to hard to judge your closer shots). With a rifle thats zeroed at around 200 to 250 yards it is not to hard to shoot accurately to around 400 yards (ie: once you practice it not to hard to judge holdover).

Like others I dont agree with longrange hunting, if you want to shoot animals at longrange then you should try Varminting where it's either a hit or a miss and wounding is not common.

 

[Rifleman 173]

Pointer, have you considered a 6.5 Grendel? The 6.5 Grendel has been used to make silhouette shots all the way out to 1,200 meters for competition purposes at a couple of ranges on the east coast. Alexander Arms holds the patent to the 6.5 Grendel but it one heck of a long range shooter. I would suspect that with the 6.5 Grendel you will need a good long range scope of some sort. Listed below are a couple of options for you to consider.

http://www.leupold.com/hunting-and-...-riflescopes/fx-3-30x40mm-adj-obj-silhouette/

http://swfa-ss.com/

Listed below is some information on the 6.5 Grendel:

http://alexanderarms.com/index.php/...grendel-general-technical-specifications.html

http://alexanderarms.com/images/pdfs/grendel_ballistics.pdf

http://alexanderarms.com/images/pdfs/grendel_manual.pdf

 

[smoakingun]

you want a hunting rifle? 300 win mag is a good choice, I don't think the bull barrel or the "sniper stock" are necessary, just a lot of unnecessary weight. I personally don't use variable power scopes on my rifles, I prefer a consistent eye relief, depending on the rifle, I use a fixed 6x schmidt-bender, or a 10x zeiss. If you will be the only shooter of this rifle, select your scope, then find a competent smith to fit the stock to you. The only chooting aid attached to my rifle is a G.I. web sling, and a second sling swivel stud is set about two inches back from the forward swivel to add some elevation when shooting from the prone position. no bi-pod is attached to the rifle. I spend a lot of time on foot when I hunt, and weight is a factor for me. My go-to hunting rifle is an m77 chambered in .308. it weighs just under 8.5 lbs fully equiped. As to making the shot, I will not attempt a shot on an animal at more than 300 yards, just too much risk to wound the animal. I know from experience (that means thousands of rounds down range) that a 10 or 15 mph cross wind has minimal effect on a 168gr bullet out to 300yds. anything beyond that, wind is an issue, and i won;t risk getting the dope wrong

 

[black mamba]

Wind is the biggest detriment to long range accuracy, so choose the cartridge based on available bullets with high ballistic coefficients. 6.5 and 7 mm have excellent BCs. They are also large enough to take most game, don't have too much recoil, and aren't too heavy to carry around hunting.

6.5-.284 Winchester is an excellent choice, and brass is now available from Hornady, Norma and Lapua, or you can neck down .284 Win brass. 140 gr Berger VLDs are the bullet of choice, with a BC of .627.

For heavier game the 7 mm mags are popular. I would personally try the 7 mm WSM, as it has the more modern accuracy developments of shorter stiffer actions with sharp shoulders on the cartridge case. The 168 gr Berger VLD has a BC of .643. Berger VLDs have an excellent reputation on game, as well as high BCs and accuracy.

Moving up to the .308 and .338 platforms require shooting 200+ gr bullets, and generally have too much weight and/or recoil for good shooting, plus are more expensive.

Also, to shoot these long for caliber long range bullets you need faster twist barrels such as 1 turn in 8, 8.5 or 9 inches, so make sure before you buy.

 

[Jim Watson]

A cartridge which allows me off the shelf variety and accessibility.

I can think of nothing better than a .300 Win Mag.
You can do better ballistically (somewhat) but there are more choices in .300 Win Mag to give you a chance for good results from factory loads.

 

[Jim243]

Try zeroing at 600 yards makes for a better trajectory.

If you zero at 600 yards, you will miss anything that is closer, you will be shooting over them. You will not be able to hit anything at 250 yards or 450 yards. You would be better off to zero at 300 or 400 yards that way you will be on target at 300 and 600 yards.

You need to listen to Kraig on bullet drop at long range.

The setup you chose is a good setup(rifle, scope, caliber), just not a flexable as you would like. If it is for hunting I would go with the Sendero rather than the SPS, I am not a Remington fan, but that is all I say about that.

You do need two different rifles, one for hunting and one for long range target shooting. The hunting rifle I would set the scope at 200 or 250 yards and the target rifle you could set for a 600 yard zero.

For hunting the 300 Win Mag will work well but will give substantual recoil. For target shooting, I would use a 6mm rifle, 6mmBR, 243, 6.5, 260 or a 7mm-08 Remington.

Just food for thought.
Jim