Long Range Marksmanship

[jesus5150]

Good Evening My TFL Buddies, I have yet another broad question...

I'm looking for a good "long range" rifle, I am being very careful to not call it a "Sniper Rifle" As I have not been in the Marine Corps, and i've never been through the Grueling training that those men and women must endure to become "Snipers" so to refer to myself as such would greatly disgrace myself and tarnish the "Sniper" Name. That being said i'll move on and try to describe what i'm looking for.

I am 22 Years old, and grew up out on the farm where my grandfather (A Marine Corp Veteran who served in Viet Nam) and my father (A Coast Guard Veteran who was top of his class and received "Expert Marksman" in all trainings) taught me the basics of handling a rifle, we had targets set up at about 200 meters, and we'd plunk away at them on the weekends until i turned 13-ish when i moved to Spokane Washington. I have not been able to seriously shoot in a long while and i greatly miss it. So now that i've purchased my first firearm (HK USP Compact) i'd like to start building my rifle. I'll be using it for long range shooting (we have a few acre's at my house and we shoot my dad's Mauser off of the 2nd story deck way out into the pasture) Now i don't know what i'm capable of, or what rifles in my price range are capable of... but i'd like to eventually be able to hit targets at 600 and 800 meters (if possible)

ALL THAT being said, i've been looking into the Remington 700 in 223. I know the popular caliber is .308 but i've heard from multiple people that it lacks "range"... Not sure if i believe that...What are your opinions? Also i've seen SPS and BDL and SPS Varmint... What does all of that mean? And lastly, i'm a College student and make very little money, so if i could make a decent rifle for around $600 (with out scope)(maximum of $1000) that would be killer, if i'm out of my gourd then please advise me on how to accomplish these goals for under a grand (If possible)

Thanks to all!!!!!

 

[nimbleVagrant]

The .308win lacks "range"? How so?

 

[jesus5150]

Lacks range

Not sure, didn't make sense to me, seeing how alot of sniper teams prefer .308. But i heard that although they have great stopping power, the weight of that round makes it drop faster. Just what i've heard from around town, but i'll trust what i hear here. That's the point of this post! I want opinions of the well educated.

 

[jesus5150]

In Addition

My grandfather has a Model 700 in 7mm Magnum and he said he's shot out to 800 yards with that... I have yet to read about the 7mm Magnum.

 

[nimbleVagrant]

The .308 is a great round, certainly capable of 600-800 yard shooting, capable of much longer ranges, and far more predictable, in terms of drift, than the .223 at longer ranges. Long range shooting isn't about using the flattest shooting round available, it's about consistency. Consistency is everything.

On your budget, I'd get a 700sps varmint in .308, a B&C aluminum blocked varmint stock, decent mounts, and the best glass you can afford. You can try using the factory Remington stock, but it's pretty cheap.

You may also want to look into Savage, they make accurate rifles.

 

[FALPhil]

As I have not been in the Marine Corps, and i've never been through the Grueling training that those men and women must endure to become "Snipers" so to refer to myself as such would greatly disgrace myself and tarnish the "Sniper" Name.

That's about the funniest thing I've read on this forum in a long, long time. You might be interested to know that even the US Marines refer to some pot-shot taking towel head as a sniper from time to time.

All that aside, here is how I built my sub $1k "sniper rifle":

Part. . . . . . . . . Total . . . . . . . .Comments
Receiver & Bolt. . 135.00. . . . . . . Stevens 200, used
Stock . . . . . . . . 107.00. . . . . . . Bell & Carlson Duramaxx Tactical
Bolt Handle. . . . . .25.00. . . . . . .Sharpshooter Supply Factory BT
Barrel. . . . . . . . .165.00. . . . . . .ER Shaw 3.5 contour 26" 300WM
Recoil lug. . . . . . . 23.00. . . . . . .Tubb
Bolt Head Parts. . . 39.00. . . . . . .Extractor, ejector, detent, springs and Bolt head (Belted Magnum)
Target trigger. . . . 71.00. . . . . . Timney
Steel trigger guard .20.00. . . . . . Savage factory
Sight Base. . . . . . .47.50. . . . . . Millett Picatinney
Rings . . . . . . . . . .47.00. . . . . . Millett Tactical 30mm
Scope. . . . . . . . .242.00. . . . . . Millett TRS-1 non-illuminated
Bipod . . . . . . . . . .50.50. . . . . . Outers Shooters Ridge 9-13

There are places yo could cut costs. You can find a Savage factory 3-screw trigger and tune it yourself for about $30. You could keep the factory bolt handle. You could find a used Savage 110 that already had a magnum bolt head.

I built this gun in 300WM With 200gr SGKs, it will hold slightly under 6 inches at 600 yards, which is the longest range I have access to. I firelapped the barrel with the NECO fire lapping kit. Firelapping tightened up the groups a lot. I am confident that it will be a decent 1000 yard gun, if I can ever find a place with 1000 yards of shooting distance.

My goal was to put the package together for under $1000. I beat that by $28. I wish I could have done it for the same price with better glass, but the Millett scope is adequate.

 

[BeCoole]

i've been looking into the Remington 700 in 223. I know the popular caliber is .308 but i've heard from multiple people that it lacks "range"

Well, the .308 isn't the greatest thing to hit the 1,000 yard range, so yes, it does lack "range". It is difficult to get to 1,000 at supersonic speeds without some warm loads. But it is fine out to 800.

That Remington you are looking at isn't going to be any better. It probably has a 1/9 twist barrel. That barrel is just a gamble with any bullet heavier than 69 gr and you will want to shoot at least 75 gr bullets just to make it to 600.

You may want to look at some other cartridge like a .260 Remington or a .243 with a 1/8 barrel.

 

[jesus5150]

That's about the funniest thing I've read on this forum in a long, long time. You might be interested to know that even the US Marines refer to some pot-shot taking towel head as a sniper from time to time.

Well be that as it may, I still am not a Sniper... Yet.... Mwa ha ha ha... Just kidding. I did put out a fire in the oven last night, so i am now a volunteer firefighter lol. And also a terrible cook.

 

[B.L.E.]

The heavier .308 bullet doesn't slow down as dramatically as the .223 bullet does. Because of this, at 1000 yards, the bullet is going faster and got there in less time despite the fact that the .223 started off at a higher velocity. Bullets that slow down like ping-pong balls also get blown off course by crosswinds a lot more than bullets that hold their velocity.

The forte of high velocity .22 caliber guns is a long point blank range. That's the range where you can just aim at the target disregarding bullet drop. Once you get beyond that point blank range, the .308 becomes a better gun.

A 180 grain .308 starting off at 2800 fps will still have about 1380 fps remaining velocity at 1000 yards and a 10 mph crosswind will drift it about 80 inches off the point of aim.

A 60 grain .223 bullet starting off at 3400 fps will be down to about 1144 fps at 1000 yards and a 10 mph crosswind will drift it about 119 inches off the point of aim.

There's a neat ballistic computing program at this web site. Lots of fun to see how different bullets perform.
http://www.handloads.com/calc/

 

[jesus5150]

You may want to look at some other cartridge like a .260 Remington or a .243 with a 1/8 barrel.

Lets just say for now that i will be taking it deer or maybe even elk hunting... Would this be enough to humanely take down a decent sized target?

That's another thing that's turning me off about the .223

 

[HiBC]

A really good tool to have for studying long range trajectories is the Sierra ballistic software.

You can enter parameters like Velocity.BC,scope height,altitude,etc If you want range tables to 1000 yds,just ask.Evey 25 yds,no problem.You can graph tw3o loads over each other to compare.It will give wind data.

Play with that a while,and you won't be asking ,folks will ask you!!

Later,as you use knobs or reticles,it will help you know the numbers

I enjoy long range shooting and I am not a veteran.I am with you on understanding and respecting the difference .

Having said that,it is not a bad idea to consider what works for them.The .308 is a very sensible choice.

To shoot long range,you must be able to estimate or measure range.

The Mil-Dot is meant for that.Save up for a laser later.

 

[dahermit]

delete

 

[dahermit]

Not sure, didn't make sense to me, seeing how alot of sniper teams prefer .308. But i heard that although they have great stopping power, the weight of that round makes it drop faster. Just what i've heard from around town, but i'll trust what i hear here. That's the point of this post! I want opinions of the well educated.

Snipers are paired into teams. There is the shooter, and his assistant who uses a laser range finder to determine range and estimates the wind. He passes on the range and estimated wind to the shooter who has a range card (if not committed to memory), that lists the hold-over for the range and deflection for estimated wind velocity and direction.
Therefore, "bullet drop", among other things are compensated for before the shot is taken...thus, how much the .308 drops compared to other cartridges is not a consideration when choosing a long range rifle for snipping.

 

[kraigwy]

Well, the .308 isn't the greatest thing to hit the 1,000 yard range, so yes, it does lack "range". It is difficult to get to 1,000 at supersonic speeds without some warm loads.

Thats not quite accurate. I'm been shooting 1000 yard service rifle matches for 30 years shooting the 308 in M14s and M1A. The 168 SMKs does have problems at 1000 but the M118 173 grn, or the 180-175 SMKs do well at 1000 yards. And I dont load hot. 2550 FPS out of a 22 inch barrel.

Also the 223 will work fine at 1000 also, but you need the heavier bullet. I use the 80 grn SMKs at 600 and 1000. You got to watch the wind, but contrary what others tell you, you got watch the wind with any rifle at long range.

Take your pick, but dont let anyone tell you either the 223 or 308 dosnt work at 1000 yards.

 

[bcrash15]

Like it has already been said, the .308 is a great round for that range, superior to the .223 in basically every category except ammo cost and recoil. The only reason I see to go with a more powerful cartridge than .308 is if your going to be doing extended shooting past 1000 yards or so, or if you are planning to hunt at those ranges (I've heard of it done, but not something the average hunter can or should do).

For the gun, the Rem 700 is a great starting point. I'll pass on mentioning detailed accurization work, as you could easily spend $600 alone there. But I'd look at a gun like the SPS Varmint. In my experience, varmint rifles make pretty good target guns and tend to have bull-type barrels.
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/model_700/model_700_SPS_varmint.asp

 

[Tikirocker]

Take your pick, but dont let anyone tell you either the 223 or 308 dosnt work at 1000 yards.

Exactly ... try telling all the Commonwealth Fullbore shooters who shoot 1000 yard comp ( such as I shoot ) with both those rounds that they are indequate!

On another note ... the best snipers in the old days ( and I would venture still ) were not Military trained but drawn from hunting and club target rifle shooters; they had years of training outside the Military and were superb marksman never the less. Military training does not automatically make great rifle men or military marksmen.

Tiki.

 

[Buzzcook]

Lets just say for now that i will be taking it deer or maybe even elk hunting... Would this be enough to humanely take down a decent sized target?

That's another thing that's turning me off about the .223

If you are in Spokane then another reason to pass on the .223 is that it is illegal to hunt deer with anything under .24 caliber in Washington state.

Too bad because for targets there is a lot to be said for the .223

Unless you reload the .308 will be "relatively" inexpensive compared to other cartridges that might be preferable for other reasons.

The Remington 700 action is very popular with long range shooters, the rest of the rifle not so much. As someone has already said getting a Remington varmint rifle would be a good start. Then as you can afford it you can swap out stock parts for higher end stuff.

There are lots of threads on long range target rifles. Use the forums search function.

 

[troy_mclure]

we were shooting a 5gal water jug with a m14/leopold 6x scope @1200m while in iraq.
the .308 lacks no range.

 

[Dirty Bill]

Go with a .308 It will cleanly kill deer and elk,if you do your part. To find out your capabilities,go to an AppleSeed shoot..

When you shoot a rifleman's score,you can forget about being a sniper,you will be a rifleman,and a rifleman is the most valuable weapon on the battle field..

Link to appleseed in my sig..

 

[predator86]

savage has a package deal going on right now, savage 10FP 308, leupold vx-3 scope, harris bipod, choate ultimate sniper stock, and a super bad ass hardcase, all for 1100-1200 somewhere in there.....


i have played with it, if you can tolerate the butt-ugly stock than that is the package for you!!!