Long range caliber recommendation
- Thread starter cdoc42
- Start date
Work up a load using Match grade bullets. Just remember that not all matches will allow any kind of magnum. And out of a hunting weight rifle, shooting magnum loads all day will pound your shoulder. Plus you must know the ballistics of the cartridge and be able to read the wind and mirage.
The 7 mag was somewhat popular for a time, much less so today. I don't even know of anyone currently offering a rifle set up for long range target shooting in 7mm RM. Some custom builds can be had. And just because it has magnum stamped on the barrel and cartridge doesn't mean recoil is excessive. 7 mag recoil is virtually indistinguishable from 30-06.
But the 6.5 will do similar things with recoil closer to 243. The 7 mag will do it with heavier bullets, and might be a little better option for hunting elk size game at extreme ranges. I'm taking 500+ yards. But for long range target shooting, or even big game hunting at reasonable ranges, I'd take the 6.5 every time.
Most of the serious long range shooters are using one of several options in 6.5mm or even 6mm. There are other options besides 6.5 CM. The CM version is just the most common and the one with lots of options for factory rifles and ammo.
But the 6.5 will do similar things with recoil closer to 243. The 7 mag will do it with heavier bullets, and might be a little better option for hunting elk size game at extreme ranges. I'm taking 500+ yards. But for long range target shooting, or even big game hunting at reasonable ranges, I'd take the 6.5 every time.
Most of the serious long range shooters are using one of several options in 6.5mm or even 6mm. There are other options besides 6.5 CM. The CM version is just the most common and the one with lots of options for factory rifles and ammo.
Jim Watson
New member
Experienced LR shooters have done a lot of balancing of supersonic range, recoil, and barrel life. When I was shooting F class, I saw Zero 7mm RM rifles.
A friend got into the brief popularity of the .284 but I don't think he has stayed with it.
The 6 and 6.5s seem to be the edges of the sweet spot for 1000.
(Wouldn't it be neat if somebody had some high BC .25 bullets made to get the quarterbore into target shooting? Prolly have to call it a 6.35mm for the 21st Century.)
A friend got into the brief popularity of the .284 but I don't think he has stayed with it.
The 6 and 6.5s seem to be the edges of the sweet spot for 1000.
(Wouldn't it be neat if somebody had some high BC .25 bullets made to get the quarterbore into target shooting? Prolly have to call it a 6.35mm for the 21st Century.)
Just to clarify, we are talking about calibers for shooting matches, not hunting, right?
HUGE difference between that and a hunting rifle capable of shooting to 1,000 yards.
Most of the matches in my area do not allow magnums.
You'll see 223 Rem, 243Win, 6mm Rem, 6 CM, 260 Rem 6.5 CM,6.5-284, 7mm-08 ( oh wait, that was me), 284 Win, 284 Shehane (an improved 284 Win), 308 Win, 30-06.
Essentially most popular calibers.
On the 25 caliber, there is a company making a 131gr high BC bullet, but it requires a special twist barrel.
I have watched one person not in a match, just shooting, use a 257 Roberts with 75gr Sierra HP varmint bullets shoot an almost perfect score 20 rounds at 1,000 yards.
It more comes down to bullet selection, and LOTS of trigger time!
HUGE difference between that and a hunting rifle capable of shooting to 1,000 yards.
Most of the matches in my area do not allow magnums.
You'll see 223 Rem, 243Win, 6mm Rem, 6 CM, 260 Rem 6.5 CM,6.5-284, 7mm-08 ( oh wait, that was me), 284 Win, 284 Shehane (an improved 284 Win), 308 Win, 30-06.
Essentially most popular calibers.
On the 25 caliber, there is a company making a 131gr high BC bullet, but it requires a special twist barrel.
I have watched one person not in a match, just shooting, use a 257 Roberts with 75gr Sierra HP varmint bullets shoot an almost perfect score 20 rounds at 1,000 yards.
It more comes down to bullet selection, and LOTS of trigger time!
Ernie Bishop
New member
What type of types of shooting/competing are you talking about?
The 7mm Rem Mag was popular in the NRA's 1000 yard prone matches from 1971 to the late 1980's after a record set in 1935 was broken in 1970. Its 800 round barrel life and heavy recoil gave way to the 6.5x284 in the late 1980's as a favorite with less recoil and longer barrel life. Plus belted cases are not as easy to reload compared to rimless bottleneck cases when best accuracy is paramount.
Why? Including the 222 Rem Mag?
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Ernie Bishop
New member
284 Winchester 1000 yard F-Open rifle with the 180 grain Berger Hybrid's.
No one or almost no one uses the 7 RM or the Creed for 1000 yards LG or HG 1000 yard matches or 1000 yard F-Open matches.
If they did, it is almost a sure thing they will not finish on top, if there are skilled shooters competing.
For 1K BR: 300 WSM, 6.5x47L, 6 Dasher, and 6 BRA are some of the top choices in LG or HG.
You can get on this site find out whats going on.
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/forums/competition-forum-all-calibers.3/
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/forums/competition-forum-all-calibers.3/
Ernie Bishop
New member
The LR bench (whether light gun or heavy gun) or F-Class/F-Open are not using the 7RM 300 Winny anymore.
If I remember the X-Ring for the 1996 Record you are talking about, is one MOA or 10" is diameter for the X-Ring. Or is it larger?
The X-Ring in F-Class whether TR or Open is half that size (5" diameter) and the 10 ring is one MOA.
The 7 Mag and the 300 WM are still good cartridges, but no serious competitor is going to use them today.
Bullets for 1K F-Open will be the Sierra 7mm 183 grain, The Berger 180 Hybrid, or the new 184 F-Open Hybrid. Chamberings will be the 284 Win, 284 Shehane, and a few 7 RSAUM's.
For 1K TR the 200.20X Berger is about the most popular for the 308 Win (You can only use a 223 Rem or a 308 Win in TR).
A lot has changed since 1996, as some disciplines have lost popularity while others are growing vibrantly, not mention better barrels, bullets, optics, etc...
Look at the current LG and HG records at a grand whether the 5-shot group or the 10-shot group, and be amazed.
People shooting 20 shots in 5" or under in F-Class at a grand.
cdoc42,
We still have not heard from you.
Give us an idea whether you want to buy an over the counter rifle, and the type(s) of shooting you want to do, or if you are interested in a bench rig, whether benched or prone.
It all depends on what you want to do for the budget you have.
If I remember the X-Ring for the 1996 Record you are talking about, is one MOA or 10" is diameter for the X-Ring. Or is it larger?
The X-Ring in F-Class whether TR or Open is half that size (5" diameter) and the 10 ring is one MOA.
The 7 Mag and the 300 WM are still good cartridges, but no serious competitor is going to use them today.
Bullets for 1K F-Open will be the Sierra 7mm 183 grain, The Berger 180 Hybrid, or the new 184 F-Open Hybrid. Chamberings will be the 284 Win, 284 Shehane, and a few 7 RSAUM's.
For 1K TR the 200.20X Berger is about the most popular for the 308 Win (You can only use a 223 Rem or a 308 Win in TR).
A lot has changed since 1996, as some disciplines have lost popularity while others are growing vibrantly, not mention better barrels, bullets, optics, etc...
Look at the current LG and HG records at a grand whether the 5-shot group or the 10-shot group, and be amazed.
People shooting 20 shots in 5" or under in F-Class at a grand.
cdoc42,
We still have not heard from you.
Give us an idea whether you want to buy an over the counter rifle, and the type(s) of shooting you want to do, or if you are interested in a bench rig, whether benched or prone.
It all depends on what you want to do for the budget you have.
Ernie Bishop
New member
Sub 4" group at a grand at a 1K match: 7WSM 180 grain JLK's
F-Open Rig that I used a the F-Class Nationals and Worlds when we hosted the worlds at the NRA Whittington Center. First time to compete with a rifle and shot clean (10 Ring is 10" in diameter) at a grand on my second morning with 6X's (5" inches or under), and it was a 15 shot string for the relay. My cold bore shot of that relay which was a sighter, was also an X. Chambering is the 284 Winchester, Lapua brass, Fed match primers, H-4831, and 180 grain Berger Hybrids. SEB MAX Rest with a SEB Bigfoot rear bag.
For non BR/F-Class sshooting see my 7mm LRM, also shooting 180 Hybrid's. Used in a LR roving tactical match:
https://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/kahles-624i-review-the-best-long-range-hunting-scope.1173/
Longest big game kill was with a 7mm WSM at 1037 yards.
I also shoot a center grip Remington XP-100 in 7mm Dakota with the 175 grain ELD-X's and below is a video from last year when I was confirming drops at 1000 yards.
Regardless what I said, I decided to prove my first shot with a second, then lowered my drop for center-hits. Using a Harris Bi-pod and a small field rear bag.
https://youtu.be/y8VuNAz7SK8
Hello to all, and apology particularly to Ernie Bishop. I didn't realize this post regenerated since March and I just picked up on it again through scrolling. My original post was created due to a friend's interest, and I reload rifle for him. He has a Sig 7mm RM that is unusual in that different bullets I loaded for him for hunting are virtually equally accurate. He is primarily (at this time) anxious for a load for hunting at extended distance -400 to 500 yards. As an extension, our local hunting club built a 1000 yard target range which stimulated his interest therein as well, raising the question if he can use the 7mm RM or look into purchasing a more "appropriate" caliber for that hobby. There is no truly competitive interest here.
Ernie Bishop
New member
With a 7mm Rem Mag at that distance, any good constructed bullet will work fine. Even a bullet like the Nosler Partition which does not have a great BC.
Accubond, Barnes LR hunting bullet, Swift A-Frame, etc... are all bullets that will work close up on a shoulder or will perform out to 500 yards as well. You don't have to worry about going below minimum impact velocities.
The main thing is for him to actually confirm his drops out to his max distance, which I am guessing is 500 yards. He needs to actually practice from field shooting conditions, to truly grasp where his skill set is. Hopefully he has a scope that has a good MIL or MOA reticle, or turrets for dialing. Holdovers using the crosshair are not accurate after you get so far out
All those animals in post #15 were killed with bullets by a human. Exactly like people killed by someone using a gun that shot bullets into them. It's not the gun that does the killing.
A given bullet striking an animal the same way at a given velocity performs identically regardless of what shot it.
Wanna kill an elk with a rifle? Walk up to one holding the rifle by its barrel then swing it fast like a golf club smacking the elk up side its head. Two or three times.
Wanna kill an elk with a cartridge? Do the same thing holding a 50 caliber BMG round then stab its head it the brain area a few times.
A given bullet striking an animal the same way at a given velocity performs identically regardless of what shot it.
Wanna kill an elk with a rifle? Walk up to one holding the rifle by its barrel then swing it fast like a golf club smacking the elk up side its head. Two or three times.
Wanna kill an elk with a cartridge? Do the same thing holding a 50 caliber BMG round then stab its head it the brain area a few times.
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Ernie Bishop
New member
cdoc42,
No apology needed first of all.
Second, the bull elk I killed last year with the 7mm Dakota was one of four elk I shot with it last year (Other three were cows), plus, one mule deer buck. I tried the Hornady 175 grain ELD-X last year, and it did great. Although this XP is set-up for distance hunting, all five animals were killed under 250 yards, and the bullet worked great with all of them. It's construction is not as tough, as some of the other ones I mentioned, but I killed enough animals with it last year, to say I would use it again.
Elk are far from bullet proof, and have successfully downed with smaller cartridges. Personally, I prefer 7mm on up for elk, but I would use a 6.5 or even a 25 cal, like the 25-06.
If your buddy just wants another elk rifle, buy all means, enable him to do so
For the distances, you have listed as his max, even the 280AI, 280, 7x57, and even the 7-08 will take elk cleanly at 500 yards, using the bullets I mentioned. I wouldn't go above the 160 grain weight for the 7-08 myself.
What the 7RM does for folks, is that it gives less drop and less drift than the others I have listed. Wind being the Achilles heel in distance hunting, it is nice to have the speed, to give you a little room for wind judging errors in the field. The 160 Nosler AB has a little less felt recoil than 175-180 class bullets, and it has a better BC for it's weight than say the Partition.
I am setting up a 6.5 PRC XP-100 and a 26 Nosler XP-100 with AB's or LR AB's for these two specialty pistols. I have shot my 26 Nos XP out to 1900 yards on steel already with the 147 grain ELD-M, but I want a differently constructed bullet for elk.
No apology needed first of all.
Second, the bull elk I killed last year with the 7mm Dakota was one of four elk I shot with it last year (Other three were cows), plus, one mule deer buck. I tried the Hornady 175 grain ELD-X last year, and it did great. Although this XP is set-up for distance hunting, all five animals were killed under 250 yards, and the bullet worked great with all of them. It's construction is not as tough, as some of the other ones I mentioned, but I killed enough animals with it last year, to say I would use it again.
Elk are far from bullet proof, and have successfully downed with smaller cartridges. Personally, I prefer 7mm on up for elk, but I would use a 6.5 or even a 25 cal, like the 25-06.
If your buddy just wants another elk rifle, buy all means, enable him to do so
For the distances, you have listed as his max, even the 280AI, 280, 7x57, and even the 7-08 will take elk cleanly at 500 yards, using the bullets I mentioned. I wouldn't go above the 160 grain weight for the 7-08 myself.
What the 7RM does for folks, is that it gives less drop and less drift than the others I have listed. Wind being the Achilles heel in distance hunting, it is nice to have the speed, to give you a little room for wind judging errors in the field. The 160 Nosler AB has a little less felt recoil than 175-180 class bullets, and it has a better BC for it's weight than say the Partition.
I am setting up a 6.5 PRC XP-100 and a 26 Nosler XP-100 with AB's or LR AB's for these two specialty pistols. I have shot my 26 Nos XP out to 1900 yards on steel already with the 147 grain ELD-M, but I want a differently constructed bullet for elk.
If I was gonna just start shooting long range, and didnt hunt, I'd go with the 6MM CM, If I was gonna use the same set up for hunting and LR targets, I'd go the 6.5 CM
You dont need to sink a lot of money in the rifle either. I bought my wife a RPR in 6.5 CM. fell in love with the round and bought a RAP in 6.5, darn thing shoots just as wll as the RPR at 1/3-1/4 the price.
I'm not the only one that believes that, youtube is full of people going a mile with the RAP in 6.5 CM.
If you dont hunt, the RAP comes in 6mm CM also.
You dont need to sink a lot of money in the rifle either. I bought my wife a RPR in 6.5 CM. fell in love with the round and bought a RAP in 6.5, darn thing shoots just as wll as the RPR at 1/3-1/4 the price.
I'm not the only one that believes that, youtube is full of people going a mile with the RAP in 6.5 CM.
If you dont hunt, the RAP comes in 6mm CM also.