Long Distance Shooting

Crazy88Fingers

New member
I'm finally starting to hone my handgun shooting skills and am at the point where I have some confidence in said skills.

If I'm shooting a gun I'm familiar with I can keep all my shots within a 6" circle at 7 yards, and bullseyes aren't as rare as they used to be.

Unfortunately when I push the target out further, say 10-15 yards, my shots are all over the place. Not even grouping consistently.

Granted I am near-sighted and haven't been to the optometrist in more than a few years. But since I'm focusing on the front sight anyway, I'm not so sure eyesight is to blame.

Any tips on longer range shooting with handguns?
 

1stmar

New member
What kind of hand gun are you shooting? What stance are you using? Where are your shots going!
I wouldn't suggest moving back to 15 yards till you can comfortably shoot 3" groups or better at 7 yards. If you are at 6", good chance you will have many misses at 15 yards and beyond. Misses provide no opportunity for improvement.
 

Noreaster

New member
With longer range it's all about trigger control and follow through (hold the trigger back and reset the next shot.) It will come but don't try and hit too small of a target right off the bat. If you can grab a steel plate (large) or old ammo can or something and try hitting that. Bullseye shooting past 15yds can get frustrating but hitting a larger target over and over again is a confidence booster. With my G27 I can hit a steel human target at 50yds 9 out of ten times consistently.
 

Crazy88Fingers

New member
I mostly shoot with double action revolvers, but the problem occurs with all varieties of handgun. I wish I could say that all my shots went one way or another at distance, but they seem to scatter all over; which is making my diagnosis a little trickier. Steel targets sound fun and productive, but not something I can do at the local ranges.

I would expect my groups to open up a bit at longer ranges, but they seem to just disappear altogether...
 

motmot

New member
It just takes a lot of bullets. I reload to relieve some of the pain/cost and I work with one gun until I get it down. My favorite right now is the Tokarev which shoots really straight and flat. Mine pulls a little left (about 2in at 50ft) but after firing 1000+ rounds I've kinda got the feel for it. I think that's my point, practice, practice, practice. Unless you've got a really bad weapon then the only variable is you. Slow down, take your time, relax and squeeze. Find the gun that works best for you now, stick with it, and then work to improve. I typically work for 4hrs at a time or until my hands say enough. When I first started years ago all the broad sides of the neighboring barns were safe, now I set clays on the side of the hill at 100 ft and break them fairly regularly. There is no substitute for time practicing. Try resting the gun on some sand bags to steady yourself and see where your shots are going and work from there. If after 500 rounds you are still all over the place then it's time to buy a shotgun.:)
 

Tipsy Mcstagger

New member
Something that I always try to train with is empty cases, if my gun feeds them. I'll look away and load up some spent cases into the magazine or into the cylinder and some live ones and see what my reaction is when the hammer drops. Inevitably, I sometimes flinch and it's difficult to overcome that. With a rifle, I can fall into the 'groove' and just lay lead down range accurately and quickly but as soon as I get comfortable shooting my pistol accurately (first 3-4 rounds where I'm really concentrating) it usually falls apart. It's like you gotta put everything into every single pistol shot you take, if you're bullseye shooting. It helps me to start off shooting that way at the beginning of the day at the range.
 

Regular Joe

New member
I feel silly shooting at paper. If you're limited to that kind of range, that's just a sad fact. I prefer to shoot at objects at different distances-- just various junk that others have left laying around. I feel that this replicates a real shooting situation much better, because a bad guy isn't just going to stand there, waiting for me to hit him in just the right spot. It can be aggravating, trying to hit a soda can at 50 yards, but if I get within a few inches, that's just fine. As has been said, it takes a lot of shooting.
 

1stmar

New member
Dry fire as much as you can focusing on front sight and trigger control. Midway USA sells plastic bullets and cases (Speer) that are primer powered and cost effective training indoors.
 

MrBorland

New member
I've written it before, but it bears repeating: The target's merely a recording device that records how well you've applied the two fundamentals. It doesn't lie. If you're not grouping, it's because you're not establishing a good sight picture, and/or your trigger pull's messing it up.

It sounds like you're mentally focused on the target, while taking pot shots and hoping for the best. Forget about the target, and watch that front sight all the way through the shot process, and improve upon whatever it tells you you need to improve upon. All the lead in the world downrange and a boat load of dry fire won't improve things until you really start paying attention to what's going on at the front sight as the shot breaks.
 

Bob Wright

New member
What type of target are you using? If a bulls eye, you should increase the size of the bull for the increased distance. You need to not only maintain near perfect sight alignment, but sight picture as well.

If you bulls eye is too small, there is a tendencey to try too long to maintain a sight picture. In other words, a too small target seems to waver around more than a larger bull, causing you to hold too long.

Bob Wright
 

buck460XVR

New member
A 6'' group @ 7 yards will be a 13'' group @ 15 yards and a 42'' group at 50 yards. In other words, keeping all shots in a 6'' circle @ 7 yards, while good enough for SD, will in fact be "all over the place" at longer distances. I think you are aiming too big @ 7 yards and this is relating to larger groups @ longer distances. Try using a 2'' bull @ 7 instead of a 6''. Also, for me shooting @ paper gets old. I like using some form of reactive targets once my gun is sighted in. Something like clay pigeons on the berm or a bowling pin hung from a Sheppards hook. Tin cans or plastic bottles....something that makes me focus more than shooting at the center of a piece of paper. At long distances I find many folks disregard the bull and just shoot to the center of the whole target....thus their groups open up even more. BTW...I sight in any new load for my handguns using some form of rest to make sure the ammo and the gun are within acceptable accuracy. Any problem off the rest, then relates to technique. If you are shooting D.A. revolvers the old coin on the barrel is a good way to practice trigger control when dry firing.
 

44 AMP

Staff
Long Distance shooting

From the title, I thought you meant long distance, 200 yards and up....:D

The essentials for hitting at long range are the same as hitting at any range where you use the sights. You simply line up the sights correctly for the range, aligned on the target, and squeeze the trigger.

The handgun need to be up to the task as well. Nearly all are, its the shooters who are not. Many revolvers have one chamber that does not shoot exactly where the rest of them do. Seldom an issue, unless you are talking bullseye accuracy or long range shooting. The round that's a couple inches outside the rest of the group at 25yds can be off a couple feet or more at 200yds. Learning your gun and load will teach you which misses are your fault, and which are the gun's (if any).

Many autoloaders will print the first round a little off from the rest. Different reason, but the same result.

To learn to shoot at long range, a couple of things are very helpful. First, you need a backstop that shows you where your bullet hits. Second, you have to be able to see it. A spotter can be helpful. Once you learn where your bullet hits, with a given sight picture at a certain range, it is a fairly simple matter to change your sight picture to get the bullet to hit your point of aim.

Of course, you also have to be consistant. That's where most people have difficulty at first. I'm talking offhand, unsupported shooting here, just to be clear. The little wobbles and bobbles that don't matter at 15 feet DO matter at 200yds.

A good trigger pull helps a lot. You can be long range accurate with a fair or even a poor trigger pull, but you, the shooter, have to work harder.

Forget speed. Speed is for close range, defensive type situations. This is what most people practice, for the good reason that its the most likely thing they will need, and if they do need it, they will need it badly. Long range shooting is recreation (with a remotely possible practical use). Be relaxed. Don't rush.

Take a coin, and place it on top of your EMPTY gun. Aim and dryfire. The coin should sit there until the gun "fires" (hammer falls) Practice until you can do this. Once you can do this, regularly, balance the coin on your gun. Lots of guns have a small flat spot where you can do this (I try to do it on the front sight). Same process, practicing a steady hold. I can balance a dime on the front sight of my Ruger Blackhawk, and when I do my part right, it stays there until the hammer falls.

Once you can manage a good steady hold, we'll talk about what sight alignment will get you hits at long range.

I can, and often have rung the 200yd gong at my local range. Given a reasonably calm day, I'll do it with any handgun you give me, before its empty (ok, not with a single shot, but any repeater...;)).

.22s are tough, you virtually need a spotter (with some optics) to spot the misses, but as long as you can tell where the bullets hit, you can adjust to get hits where you want, with anything. My technique works with any caliber, any barrel length, any gun. Some guns have a much steeper learning curve than others, but it can be done.

You mentioned being nearsighted, that is a complication. For long range hits, you have to be able to see your target, and you front sight, well enough so you can consistently put the front sight where you want it, in relationship to the target. It does take more precision than aiming COM at 7yds. If you can see you long range target as a fuzzy object on top of your front sight, we can work with that. IF you can't, go see the eye doc or find a different hobby.
 

eldermike

New member
Bob brings up a good point. Change the bull size so you don't have to change your sequence.

Another thing about group size is that a 4 inch group at 10 yards will not be a 4 inch group at 15 yards. The angles continue and the distance between holes grows as you add distance.
 

shortwave

New member
The coin on the barrel is a very good trigger training technique.

Another very good training tool for trigger control is a laser dot(IE Crimson Trace). Or, if you don't have something such as a CT laser, you can use a pencil like laser pointer that instructors sometimes use teaching classes and tape it to your bbl.

Naturally, with your pistol unloaded, with your laser dot pointed at a plain wall(no target) practice dry firing at the plain wall. The object being to concentrate on nothing but pulling through with as little dot movement as possible and not even thinking about a target. Or speed.
Speed, double tapping etc. will come with practice.



FWIW, the coin or laser drills as well as other drills that may be suggested are NEVER mastered but rather drills that less, as well as more experienced shooters should continue to practice however good of a shot they become.

Grip and placement of trigger finger on the trigger is very important for consistency as well as breathing etc. Would suggest you do some research in the proper grip methods as well as trigger finger placement. If you are gripping your pistols differently each time you shoot or not placing your finger on the trigger the same each time, your shots will be all over the board.

The key is to learn the proper grip and how deep to set your trigger finger and staying consistent with each shot. Do the same while you're practicing your dry firing exercises. After a while, it will become habit.

Lastly, this may have already been touched on, but if it where me, I would pick one gun that fit my hand comfortably and work with it exclusively till I mastered a much tighter group at say 7yds before I moved out further. You will do nothing but get aggravated shooting at further distances if your groups are not tighter at lessor distances.
 
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James K

Member In Memoriam
How bad is your distance vision? Keeping the sights lined up is critical, but they also have to aligned on something. It is OK if the target is blurred, but for some folks even a ten-yard bullseye will be effectively invisible, not even a discernable blur. If you can't see a target, then carrying a would be problematical. (How would you recognize a threat?)

If you normally wear glasses, then wear those glasses for shooting practice. The rear sight might appear blurred, but likely the front sight will be clearer and you can compensate for that better than you can compensate for a blurred or near-invisible target.

Jim
 

Mike / Tx

New member
Trigger time and trigger control are two separate things. Then there is shooting, and "SHOOTING", where your actually being methodical in each and every shot you make working on form. I see many who shoot just to shoot and figure that in a bad situation a lot of rounds will be better. I guess I was just raised differently as I think the first round hitting where I want it to is better, and I will have other rounds if needed. Shooting a whole bunch without taking the time to realize where or what your are messing up if your REALLY looking for tip top accuracy is simply burning ammo. IMO

One of the biggest issues I have seen is flinching, when you actually pull the trigger, whether you know it is happening or not. One of the best and easiest test for it, is having a friend load your magazine or cylinder putting in a snap cap or dummy round, or simply leaving one chamber of your cylinder empty and not allowing you to see which one. There are a TON of shooters who would never in their wildest dreams believe they flinch one bit when shooting, only to find they rally do when things don't go boom. I had a friends wife almost throw me off their property when I closed the bolt on an empty chamber and she jerked the rifle almost 2" off the rest. It embarrassed her more than anything, well other than really upset her, but at least she then knew it wasn't her rifle that was the issue. Several boxes of ammo, and a few hours here and there putting time behind the trigger while concentrating on what was going on, settled things out for her nicely.

Then there is follow through, where you squeeze the trigger but stop once the round goes off. This leads to different amounts of pressure being applied to the grip with each shot as your grip will change whether you realize it or not. Thing is a little bit in the hand with a 6" barrel is a LOT out there at the target. The further you stretch it the wider it gets. The opposite of this is jerking the trigger just when you THINK it should go off. A combination of the two isn't out of the question either.

What your looking for is subconscious muscle control or memory, where you repeat the same thing time and time again, but you've done it enough that you don't even realize your doing it.That means that with each pull of the trigger, your hand and fingers all repeat the same motion time and time again. It takes time to develop and isn't hard to do, but in the same time frame you can also develop bad habits just as easily. You also don't want to squeeze the daylights out of your grip either. This in of itself will trash groups as well. Had a young lady shooting next to me one day who asked if I would shoot her pistol and see if I could tell what was wrong with it. Great little Walther PPK and it shot a one hole ragged group at about 5yds. I was shooting my Redhawk in 44 mag and asked her to come over and shoot it. She was VERY intimidate just by the weight and size compared to hers. I told her to just hold on to it, and squeeze the trigger. Well after the first shot she was amazed she hit the bull at 25yds from the rest. She had to try it again. And again she hit the bull, not right together but hit the bull none the less. So now we went to her PPK and I told her, to just like the big one simply hold on to it and squeeze the trigger. Bull, bull, bull, and so on she went. She was simply squeezing the grips to death when she fired it, figuring it kicked so she had to. Once she knew it wasn't going to be bad, and what her issue was, she went to town with it.

The target below is shot at 25yds standing two had hold from a Taurus Raging Bull in 454. The loads are 300gr cast loaded to 1550fps. The initial recoil is sharp and stout but nothing that is really overboard, in that I can easily shoot 50 - 100 at a session if I actually bring that many with me. Usually I only bring it to more or less settle myself in for shooting my other revolvers. I know if I am not on with this one I might as well hang it up for the rest as this load literally shoots one hole groups from a rest.

This was when I tested out the difference between water dropped and air cooled bullets. Everything else was exactly the same except for that. As you can see it much prefers air cooled.
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All this said though, I only posted it as an example of what your capable of. I can also do pretty good with it out to 100yds as well. But I didn't just run out last week and start shooting like that. It has taken nearly 20 years of shooting handguns, practicing basic fundamentals, and LOTS of ammo downrange, to be able to do so. There were times where I shot upwards of 4-500 rounds a week or sometimes more. While I have always been somewhat able to keep things "about" where I wanted them to be, there is a BIG difference in "about" and "where" when your talking accuracy, be it with a load, or your shooting skills.

One other thing that is a HUGE help is to have someone watch you closely when your shooting. Have them watch your fingers for tightening, or your arms, or simply the muzzle as your getting ready to fire. A lot can be seen from a bystander that is not readily apparent to the shooter their self. Once you start to find out these little things it goes a LONG ways in shrinking your groups.

Hope this helps.
 

BigJimP

New member
Since you're shooting revolvers....

a. my first question is - are you better Single Action than in Double Action ? If the answer is yes, then the answer lies in your grip and trigger pull action probably / and not letting your eyes go back and forth from front sight to the taget --- and bounce back and forth. "Front Sight" is the only thing you look at.

b. I'm assuming you are not drawing from a holster and trying to make these shots ( like double taps ) in under 3 sec or something...because "Tactical Accuracy" is very different from "Bulls Eye" shooting.../ in fact, if your groups get too tight in "tactical shooting" then you need to speed up ...because you aren't pushing yourself fast enough / but a typical Tactical target zone is that 8 1/2" X 11" zone that is center chest on a silhouette target ...where any hit in that 8 1/2" X 11" zone is just as "tactically good" as any other...

c. Maybe its an ammo issue / and you're developing a flinch ( coin on barrel dry firing is a good idea )...and during the drill, if the quarter hits the floor...then make yourself drop it into a "penalty jar" ....and give the change away to someone in the family or something....so you have something to lose ( even if its small, it makes you focus) ! Another good drill ....get a buddy to load your cyclinder ...put in 1 or 2 dummy rounds /snap caps or even spent cases...so you don't know which cyclinders are live - which ones are fired...( see if you flinch ).../ you can do it yourself as well ( just close your eyes - rotate the cyclinder - as you close it).

If you have similar guns in .22 / .38 spl / .357 mag / .44 mag....go down in caliber ( does it improve ??)....or rent similar guns - and see if it changes...

d. maybe its a "fit" issue....stocks are too wide, gun doesn't fit your hands properly, etc...try different stocks, if you have some ...maybe that will help.

e. get to an optometrist / get some "shooting glasses" made - so you can see the front sight more clearly ...and have some vision beyond. My eyes are terrible ( 20 - 300 & a stygmotism, etc ) ....on my right lens ( my dominant eye) that lens is made for the focul length of my front sight / the left lens is ground to give me vision further out ....result is, I can see the front sight pretty clearly ..and still have vision beyond / and a bi-focul elipse is ground into lower portion of lens ( DeCot HyWyd and others make prescription shooting glasses ) ....buy the frames / lens are insert - and easily changed as your vision changes.

http://sportglasses.com/
 

eldermike

New member
Impact points when referenced to Point of Aim can result in you Intentionally/unintentionally making changes in your fundamentals to correct the differences. This is dynamic thing because an impact point (singular) is only some portion of an actual potential group.
As an example you could hold the second shot differently than the first because you "missed" what you were aiming to hit.

There is a concept in archery called blank bale where you learn fundemantals without an actual target. Groups don't need to hit anything they just need to be groups.
I became a better pistol shot after I became an archery instructor. They have some really old but solid methods of teaching fundamentals.
If I do the same thing every time, I get the same result. If I do something different each time I get different results. Simple, but not natural. The brain wants to correct mistakes and it's a powerful thing.
 
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