Load plated w/ lead data? Well, read this. . .

[Nick_C_S]

I did some chronographing today. Among the rounds tested were three identical rounds - except the bullet.

All three were 38 Special
All three were 148g DEWC's.
All three were loaded with new Winchester brass.
All three were loaded with Winchester primers WSP.
All three were loaded with 3.3g of AA2, and within the same day - the same hour, for that matter. And with the same taper crimp die setting.

Group #1 was a Missouri Bullet "PPC #2" BHN-10 lead DEWC .358".
Group #2 was a SNS Hardcast Coated DEWC .358".
Group #3 was a Rainier Plated DEWC. 357".

_____________686 3"bbl_______686 4"bbl
Group #1______723 fps_________757 fps
Group #2______722 fps_________754 fps
Group #3______621 fps_________653 fps

As you can see, the plated bullets delivered far less velocity. And this is why you load plated bullets to JACKETED data. Like jacketed bullets, plated bullets have more barrel friction. Personally, I would not want to load Group #3 any lower. I don't know at what point a stuck bullet would occur, but getting in the low 600 fps neighborhood is as close as I care to get.

Of course, loading plated bullets to high pressure/velocities brings its own set of problems, but that's outside the scope of this experiment. The point is, when looking at starting loads - especially of the target/plinking variety - reference similar jacketed data. Not lead.

 

[LE-28]

With the Xtreme plated bullets the velocity would probably be even lower since they have about 3 times the copper plating that Ranier's have.

I always use jacketed data with Berry's and especially Xtreme plated bullets because of the heavier plating, but observe the speed limit of the bullets according to the mfg.

 

[Gray Ghost]

Doesn't Rainier recommend using lead data?

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

With the Xtreme plated bullets the velocity would probably be even lower since they have about 3 times the copper plating that Ranier's have.

Its not he thickness of the plate but the material that produces less/more fps depending on the coefficient of dry static friction.

 

[mjes92]

Similar Test

I recently loaded .38 Spl with AA#2 for th first time.
Loaded same day. fired same day, 30 F

125 gr HP Powerbond plated bullet, 4.5 gr AA#2, WSP (Jacketed data)
6"barrel = 790 avg. (144 fps extreme spread)
2"barrel = 698 avg. (80 fps extreme spread)

125 gr LRNFP bullet, 3.7 gr AA#2, WSP (Lead data)
6"barrel = 748 avg. (86 fps extreme spread)
2"barrel = 624 avg. (24 fps extreme spread)

What does the results tell you?
0.8 more grains more powder equated to similar velocities ???

Very light recoil as hoped, but too much unburnt powder. (burnt yellow)
Any suggestions to eliminate unburnt powder?

Sorry for the Hi-jack.

 

[Nick_C_S]

Doesn't Rainier recommend using lead data?

I believe they do.

And they would be wrong.

 

[Jim Watson]

The main thing it tells me is to not load a black powder round, which .38 Special originally was, with jacketed or plated bullets. Lubricated lead gets down the barrel a lot easier.

I think mjes92 will have to get off those starting loads to eliminate unburnt powder. Or go to something else. I am loading Bullseye for powderpuff .45 ACP. It is sooty but consistent in light loads.

 

[Nick_C_S]

AA2

I've always had excellent luck with AA2 burning clean. I have lots of AA2 on hand, and am running low on my tried-n-true W231 & Bullseye. Hence, the impetus for chronographing the above rounds. It wasn't to do a lead vs. plated experiment. It was the first step in making IDPA power floor rounds using AA2.

But I agree: You can't beat Bullseye for consistent burning. You'll never get that yellow unburnt powder thing with it (at least, I've never seen it in 30 years of loading). Bullseye is "residuey" though. No matter what, it leaves an extremely fine - almost oily - film. All powders leave behind residue, of course. But Bullseye's seems a little different.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

As you can see, the plated bullets delivered far less velocity. And this is why you load plated bullets to JACKETED data. Like jacketed bullets, plated bullets have more barrel friction. Personally, I would not want to load Group #3 any lower. I don't know at what point a stuck bullet would occur, but getting in the low 600 fps neighborhood is as close as I care to get.

If the only variable was the plating, that might be true.

However, I'm guessing you didn't load them to the same seating depth, which has a HUGE impact on the pressure and velocity of handgun rounds.

A seating depth change of 0.1" can make a pressure difference of 10s of thousands of PSI in some cases.

Somehow, I suspect the manufacturers know more about how to load their bullets than you can learn by one experiment, with one powder, in one gun, with multiple uncontrolled variables.

A lower velocity suggests lower pressure, all else being equal. All else being equal, lower pressure indicates LESS bore friction... but all else is NOT equal.

 

[madmo44mag]

Came to the same conclusion long ago.
I even went so far as to push plated bullets fast enough to strip the platting and was well into the jacketed loading data.
With Rainers bullets with a 240gn 44 mag the plating didn't start stripping to over 1425 fps.

 

[Clark]

1) Hot loads with plated bullets make for lots of extra holes in the target as the plating spins off the bullet and has a different point of impact.

2) I have overloaded a lot of guns and cartridges to try to find some practical limit or failure. 38 Specials of many makes and models all seem to have generous safety margins compared to other cartridges.

 

[AlaskaMike]

Darn it. Clark just made the point I wanted to make--using jacketed data is fine up until the point where you discover that the plating won't survive the same velocities as a real bullet jacket.

 

[totalloser]

As I had understood it, the reason for loading using lead data versus jacketed data with plated was size and sealing. Lead being .001" over and able to better seal the bore, thus similar charges lead to higher velocities.

If this is the case, use of that data is so that you don't reach the high end of pressure too soon. The lower velocity with plated says to me that the plating offers less resistance and is able to run away from the pressure curve.

PS. probably the lube is the reason for higher velocity, sealing the bore 100% vs plated with no lube.

I would be very cautious suggesting an across the board 10% jump in all load data that is the standard set by both bullet manufacturers, book writers etc. Likely (quite) I am not as experienced as the OP, but quite possibly am more experienced than MANY who will read this thread and I leave them with this:

ERR ON THE SIDE OF CAUTION. In ALL handloading.

 

[Nick_C_S]

Brian:

And with the same taper crimp die setting.

They all had an OAL of 1.238 +/- a few thousanths.

And it was with two guns.

 

[MEATSAW]

COL does not equal seating depth.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

They all had an OAL of 1.238 +/- a few thousanths.

No doubt, but the bullets aren't the same length and so the seating depth is not the same, therefore the amount of space available for initial powder burn is not the same. That makes a HUGE difference with handgun loads.

 

[Unclenick]

Nick,

My first though was Brian mentally fused your data with mjes92's data. Mjes92 was comparing round nose with a 0.8 grain larger charge to an HP that was likely seated deeper, but getting the same velocities. But it seems not. To his point: are the bullets the same length? If not, the same COL produces different seating depths. See formula below.


mjes92,

Seating Depth = Case Length + Bullet Length – COL

Compare that and see if the JHP wasn't deeper, raising starting pressure.

As to dirty burn, you need either higher start pressure or more overall pressure or both. Spherical powders, by the way their progressivity works, have harder to ignite surfaces than flakes and it takes higher pressures to burn them completely. Your high extreme spreads are a symptom of inadequate ignition and/or burn at peak. A magnum primer may fix that. Higher powder charge may fix that or you may need both.

I was also interested in your long barrel gun getting twice or more ES as a percentage of muzzle velocity than the shorter barrel gun. All else being equal, the opposite usually occurs. I would look at the consistency of your chamber throat diameters in the longer barrel gun. See if you can identify a particular chamber that opens the group up. If not, does the longer barrel gun have longer chambers or is it maybe a .357 while the shorter one is a .38 Special? Extra space will make consistent burning harder to achieve.

 

[Nick_C_S]

UncleNick, Brian,

I wasn't discounting anything Brian was saying. I was just making some additional statements for clarity. Without doubt, one experiment does not make for a law of nature

Good point on the seating depth. There's a variable I had over looked. The MoBuCo's & the SNS's are .575; and the Rainier's are .540. Since they are all loaded to the same COL, the Rainer's are yielding 35-thousands more internal case volume. That's plenty to make a difference.

This is why I like the TFL

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

Wait... O I C...


Yes, I guess I wasn't paying attention very well...

Ok... just so we have the numbers... the plated DEWC are longer bullets than the non-plated, yes? They'd pretty much have to be if they're the same weight....

Ok... you're shooting a very light load of a pretty fast powder... I guess I can buy the argument that it burns fast enough that bore friction makes a big enough difference to slow it down....

Higher pressure, more rapid burn, faster dropping pressure, friction takes over?

Hm. Maybe. I'll leave that one to UncleNick.

 

[Sevens]

ERR ON THE SIDE OF CAUTION. In ALL handloading.

^Posted by totalloser
This is a good tip, of course. HOWEVER! (you knew that was coming! )

...when it comes to plated bullets, and ESPECIALLY in revolvers, too much caution can be a very bad thing.

Too much caution with a plated bullet can, and in my experience WILL lead to a stuck bullet. Much more so in a revolver where there is a genuine escape path for the much needed gas.

Too much caution in the wrong direction and you've got problems. And if you stick one and you aren't going slow and very much looking/expecting those problems... now you've got catastrophic problems.

Tens of thousands of plated bullets through my guns, the numbers are in my log right down to the bullet. Don't run these things like lead because they don't go down a gun barrel like lead.