Load Data descrepencies for .243 Win.

[Colorado Redneck]

Getting ready to start hand loading for .243 Winchester. There are a couple of questions I have about load data contradictions.


The Speer Load Data from Manual #14 for 85 grain BTSP shows Varget starting at 37.5 and max of 42.0 gr. The Hodgdon Manual shows 34.3 - 36.5 for Barnes 85 grain TSX and 34.0 -36.5 for the Speer 90 gr. SP. The starting load from the Speer manual is higher than the max load for either of the bullets shown by Hodgdon. W760 powder is similar but not as pronounced.



There are obviously differences in the performance of bullets of different manufacture, but still that is a large discrepancy in my opinion. If this forum didn't exist, I would probably start at the beginning weight listed by Hodgdon for the 90 grain bullet and work up carefully, and if there were no pressure signs then continue into the range of powder charges listed by Speer.


What would you guys recommend? How would you proceed?

 

[Tom Matiska]

The Barnes TSX is a slightly different animal. The Speer bullet is same weight, but different construction.


Note #1 on the Barnes site

1. What load data do I use for the Tipped Triple-Shock and Maximum Range X Bullets?
Answer. We recommend using Triple-Shock X Bullet data from Barnes Reloading Manual Number 4 or the Technical Section of Barnes Bullets website.

 

[44 AMP]

What would you guys recommend? How would you proceed?

I would recommend starting with the understanding that ALL load data is a published record of what the testers got with the specific components they used.

You, I, and all the other "testers" do not have the exact same components. And "components" in this case also includes the gun used.

Now, similar component combinations generally behave similarly, which is why reloading data is a guideline, and not an immutable law. Some combinations behave quite differently from the norm, and you won't know, until it happens, if it does, to you. Which is why you always hear the "start low and work up" advice.

Even though they may weigh the same different bullets can have much different construction, and data for each will be different. Things like jacket material, and the bearing surface area can make a difference.

Every part of the entire package makes a difference. Case, primer, bullet, powder, and firearm. And how the ammo is put together can matter, too.

How would you proceed?
I would proceed by finding the data closest to what you have, as possible, reduce the starting load by 10%, and fire a few test rounds.

once you know that your combination of everything is going to perform within the usual range, you can proceed to load development.

 

[Jimro]

Bullet construction has a lot to do with how much friction needs to be overcome by pressure to get the bullet down the bore.

Even flat base bullets of the same weight as boat tails can have very different friction numbers.

Jimro

 

[FrankenMauser]

Data for Barnes' solid copper bullets almost never matches up with data for 'traditional' (cup and core) bullets.

If you're looking for traditional data (copper jacket, lead core), stick with traditional bullets.
If you're looking for solid copper data, then stick with solid copper bullets.


Trying to make Barnes TSX data work for traditional construction Speer bullets, is roughly akin to asking your mother to make a delicious apple pie, but handing her a bucket of oranges as the main ingredient.

--

You did not specify in your post what bullet you actually want to load.
What is it?

 

[Tom Matiska]

True about side friction, but also lead free are longer than lead core of equal weight...... more bullet below the waterline leaves less case volume. Same consideration for Hornady's FTX. It seats deeper than its flat tip 30-30 cousins and FTX specific data is many grains lower.

 

[Colorado Redneck]

Thanks for your input!

Frankenmauser--The bullet in question -- Speer 85 gr. BTSP. I copied the load data out of the manual in a store for that particular bullet, as it is one that I want to try and have both Varget and W760 powders.

44 AMP--I understand, but in looking at the data online for Hodgdon the only 85 gr. bullet was the Barnes TSX. However, the Speer 90 gr bullet is not far off, so that was also causing me some worry. Thanks for you suggestion, and that is the way forward for me.

Many times in many threads here in TFL there have been comments about checking more than one data source for load recipes to be sure you are on the right track. Personally, I have seen mistakes in load books over the years, and do not want to make a booboo by disregarding sound advice.

I did send an email to Speer to verify the data. In the "Reloaders Nest" there are a few loads using similar components and the charges using Varget were less than the starting load for that bullet in the Speer manual. So it made me highly suspicious. I value my eyesight and my fingers---both are really handy for hunting and shooting.

 

[Snyper]

The bullet in question -- Speer 85 gr. BTSP.

That can be a very accurate bullet, but it's a little fragile for deer at normal velocities.

It may kill them, but exit wounds aren't likely and it may fail to penetrate altogether on a less than perfect broadside shot.

A 95 Gr Ballistic Tip will outperform it by quite a bit

 

[Colorado Redneck]

Good point about Speer being fragile

The idea for the Speer bullet is for pronghorn hunting---should be more than adequate since some shots are long and it has a nicer ballistic coefficient than other bullets of similar weight. For deer the 90 gr. Nosler ballistic tip will hopefully be accurate and perform well. Similar to the 100 gr. BT in 25-06 which has been a killer diller for all kinds of deer and pronghorn for me and my son.

Thanks!

p.s. Did I mention that I really enjoy working up different loads with various components? Worked up many loads for the 25-06 and 270 Win that were never used for actual hunting. This stuff is addictive!

 

[WVMountaineer]

If you want a great bullet across all velocities the 243 produces, look into the Speer Grand Slam 100 grain spitzer. It is as fine a bullet made by anyone.

The Barnes will generate higher pressure due to being longer. Therefore having to be seated deeper. God Bless

 

[FrankenMauser]

Speer 85 gr. BTSP. I copied the load data out of the manual in a store for that particular bullet, as it is one that I want to try and have both Varget and W760 powders.

Use the Speer data.



As for other bullets...
I'm getting ready to test 85 gr Partitions in my 6x45mm, and they'll eventually end up in the ".243" as well (it's a .243-based wildcat).
My standard bullet for deer and pronghorn in the ".243" is the Hornady 95 gr SST. I have a metric ton of them. I must admit, however, that I have not yet filled a tag with that bullet. (Bad luck drawing tags, or that rifle happens to be in "time out" when I get into the goats. )

Based on my experience with Partitions in other applications, I have no doubts that the 6mm / 85 gr will be satisfactory (in either cartridge) for speed goats and deer.

 

[hooligan1]

Speakin of .243 winchester, I just finished a batch of 115 grain Berger Hunting VLD's, and 115 grain DTAC' using RL22.

The "Bad Boy" loves em!!!

 

[Colorado Redneck]

What twist you using for the 115 gr. Bergers? Must be 1/8.5??

 

[mikld]

My thoughts;

Say you had a room full of lab technicians from 12 different powder, bullet, primer and reloading equipment manufacturers. You instruct them to go back to their labs and develop loads for a specific caliber, with a specific bullet design/weight. They go back to their facilities and test/develop load data using their specific manufactured lot of powder and primers. They use the lot of the specific bullet they have. They use the cases they have. They have their own specific reloading tools equipment, some brand new, some well worn. They all use their own test equipment, some measuring in PSI, some in CUP, and some new, some worn. Some work in a state of the art laboratory with brand new state of the art equipment, and some may use their 40+ year old equipment/lab. Some will use real guns to test loads (of unknown wear and tear) and some will use universal receivers with barrels of unknown wear.

Will they all come back with identical results?

When in doubt about load data, just start with the lowest reported load and work up. No downside to that...

 

[hooligan1]

Colorado Redneck, its a 24" 1-7" twist McGowen bull barrel.


It can put them in same hole, but I cant seem to,

The rifle can be seen in the thread " Might have to say bye bye to this one" by Taylorce1.
Couldn't resist so I bought that rifle before Talyorce1 changed his mind.

 

[Colorado Redneck]

I think I recal that rifle

Taylor does lots of nice and interesting things with guns. Sounds like a real shooter.

Mine is a Marlin youth model that I want to use for medium game till I am too old to hunt anymore. It shoots pretty good right out of the box, but being addicted to loading, even though I gritted my teeth for 2 months as I had promised myself that factory ammo is the way to go for a hunting rifle, temptation finally got the upper hand. The Lee RGB dies got here today with the Ballistic Tip 90 grainers. Probably be downstairs after supper making up rounds to try next week sometime.

This is a terrible disease. Wonder if there is a 12 step program for handloaderitis?

 

[745SW]

Apparently the 243Win cartridge is more sensitive to the specific bullet used than others. The Speer no. 13 manual basically says to use only the bullets given for this cartridge.

 

[noylj]

Well summarized--reloading data is only a guideline. You don't have their gun, their lot number of cases, their lot number of powder, their lot number of bullets or their lot number of primers. You'll notice that most manuals will tell you the cases and primers used (but not the lot numbers). Also, bullet manufacturers will change bullet designs slightly and never let the users know (that, and they make bullets out of several difference swaging dies that also have their own differences). Small changes in meplat/ogive can make a difference.
I simply compile data and start at or very near the lowest start load I can find and work my way up. That has always seemed to near rule ! of reloading to me.
This is one reason why I shake my head when any one, particularly the manufacturer, implies that a given load manual is "the best."

 

[mikld]

Hee-Hee. I know some "best" load manuals, but, not for the load data, but the "How To"/info section...

 

[Colorado Redneck]

Got the lowdown straight from the horses mouth

Roger: the bullet dictates the load data. I expect the Barnes bullet is an all copper bullet, longer with more drag. The Speer data is proper for Speer bullets.

Shoot Straight!
Coy Getman
2299 Snake River Ave.
Lewiston, ID 83501
Sr. Technical Coordinator
Alliant/Blazer/CCI/Speer Bullets & Ammunition
(800) 379-1732

So I will try the Varget loads one of these days and if the results are contrary will get this thread rejuvenated. Thanks for all of the comments and thoughts!