Limits to muzzle discipline?

[Willie D]

A comment on a different forum about poor range etiquette got me thinking about where does the line in the sand get drawn on muzzle control.

The conversation was about keeping firearms pointed in a safe direction whilst putting in or taking out of cases. Some people felt this should extend to pointing cased firearms as well.

I try to be as mindful and courteous as possible but some of my carry cases hold two rifles in opposite directions so while unboxing them at the range (on a back bench where most people take out their gear before opening bolts and putting on racks), it just might be that someone else might be doing the same and that one or both of us is effectively down range from the other.

I only uncase my pistols at the firing line, but here again I have one case in which I occasionally bring two guns facing opposite directions. In this instance I'll take care to orient the case so that one faces down range while the other is pointing back behind me for only for the moment until I pick it up and flip it forward, careful so as not to sweep myself or anyone. (I will add that I am also transporting all range firearms unloaded)



Do you guys think my range behavior is acceptable? What about general handling of cased weapons? How about being put down range of a holstered firearm?

I get very uncomfortable when put in the sights of someone sitting or wearing a shoulder holster.

 

[boatdoc173]

on the ranges I go to--if you unload a gun ANYWHERE BUT in you r lane--you get scolded. too many careless people out there who DO sweep me and others with muzzles. it is nerve wracking to say the least

my wife reminds me that the same fools who do not obey the rules on the road and put others in danger due to their careless ,inconsiderate behavior are on the range too

the WORST case we experienced was a knuckle head trying to clear a shotgun while pointing it at us in another lane!!!

best to set up in your lane to avoid issues--JMHO

 

[9x45]

You do that in a competition match, sanctioned or not, you go home. And no organization allows shoulder holsters or small of the back because it automatically breaks the 180 degree rule.

 

[g.willikers]

Do you guys think my range behavior is acceptable?

Well, since you asked:
No, it's not.
Pack them in a more agreeable way for unpacking at the range.
All muzzles face downrange at all times.
No exceptions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vSfqR3Hyxc

 

[kilimanjaro]

I like to think that controlling the direction of the unloaded and cased firearm muzzle is a bit much, but consider that the range is a populated public area, lots of firearms, adrenaline, and as much gun handling in an hour as most folks will do in a year.

None of the gun handling is due to an emergency, threat to life, etc., so muzzle discipline and gun handling can be as controlled as the rangemasters want it to be. Bottom line is, there is no reason to not have strict behaviors.

That's the reason for the cased firearm caution. Someone is going to put a loaded gun in a case and drop it, or push the trigger on closing the case, and where the muzzle is pointing is going to determine if someone lives or dies, perhaps.

 

[TailGator]

The outdoor range that is near me requires the range officers to check your pistols clear on the back bench as soon as you enter. Shooters come in, remove their pistols from bags, cases, and or pistol rugs, and lock the actions open for inspection, with the muzzles pointed away from the firing line, 180 degrees from downrange. That is all well and good, but they don't seem to realize that they are sweeping the parking lot as they do it. I come and go from my car quite warily there. My point is, it isn't all about keeping the gun pointed down range.

 

[Pahoo]

"The Muzzle always has the last word"

The conversation was about keeping firearms pointed in a safe direction whilst putting in or taking out of cases. Some people felt this should extend to pointing cased firearms as well.

During our classes, we try to impress that it's a mind-set that one has to adopt. We all know that there are four basic Safe Gun Handling Rules/Guidelines and we always state that regardless of what goes on, all needs to dictate our actions.
Pointing a muzzle at anything, anytime, will never kill anyone but as we teach,
"The Muzzle always has the last word"

At all times, you need to build and set layers of safety protection. Many have already listed some. We should do our best, in our own best ways. ...

Be Safe !!!

 

[Erno86]

I don't know the rules for your range...but I speculate that it would be proper range etiquette {on the firing pad} for you to take one pistol out of the case with the muzzle pointed downrange --- close the case --- reverse the case, then take the second pistol out of the case with the muzzle pointed downrange.

For rifles...it used to be all right to do the same at our range --- but the new rule states for a 2 rifle case --- put the case on the gun rack vertically that is located behind the firing pad --- open the case and take out the guns, then open the actions...though the RSO's seem to be pretty lax about handling of guns behind the firing pad at our 100 yard outdoor range. All rifle cases on the firing pad, must have the muzzle end of the case pointed downrange or up --- whether empty or not. Our Three Gun range rules are different...over at our 200 yard range.

You can also open the single or double gun case in your car on the parking lot, then open the action --- with empty chamber indicator inserted in the chamber, muzzle up ---- the bring the rifle, shotgun or pistol to the staging area, that is located behind the concrete firing pad--- if the line is still hot...you can bring the firearm to the firing pad --- We do not have a staging area on our pistol range. Holster draw is only permitted by the rules committee.

Double gun cases cause a significant portion of range violations, when mishandled improperly on our range.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

I don't know the rules for your range...but I speculate that it would be proper range etiquette {on the firing pad} for you to take one pistol out of the case with the muzzle pointed downrange --- close the case --- reverse the case, then take the second pistol out of the case with the muzzle pointed downrange.

That is exactly so, and it is so because a human being is directly interacting with the firearm.

The idea that a cased firearm, being carried (by definition) in a manner by which the human is not touching it, could be considered dangerous is ludicrous beyond imagination.

What are we supposed to do when the tractor trailer is driving a entire shipment of firearms down the highway? Are they all supposed to point straight down (or up?) so they're "safe"?

What about when the person who has to carry this cased firearm pointed in a "safe" direction gets in their car and drives? Does it STILL have to be pointed in a safe direction?

The whole idea is stupid, in my not so humble opinion.

The problem with safety with firearms is the HUMAN not the gun. When the human CAN'T TOUCH the gun, it's no more dangerous than a tape dispenser.

Wow. How about the guy carrying IWB who has to tie his shoe? Is he supposed to make sure his gun doesn't point at someone behind him when he bends over? Come on people.

 

[Branko]

People fussing over firearms in a closed case are trying to be bigger catholics then the pope.

The only geometrically possible way to bring a case with a gun from the parking lot to the firing line is to havethe case always point down or up, and if you want to be strict about it, up and down aren't safe directions, either. So, basically, what they are saying is that only acceptable firearm safety procedure is to not to bring it to the range at all. Defeats the point of a firing range.

The muzzle discipline rules exist to prevent tragic accidents while someone is handling the gun and should be dilligently observed.

If the rangemasters are so worried about cased firearms, then force people to bring unloaded guns to the range and take them unloaded out of the range.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

The idea that a cased firearm, being carried (by definition) in a manner by which the human is not touching it, could be considered dangerous is ludicrous beyond imagination.

I agree completely. I have never worried about cased firearms, and I have never known anyone who worried about cased firearms. Once you start obsessing about firearms in cases, where do you stop? How can you orient the case in your car so that a muzzle never points toward someone? How can you carry from your house to your car, or from your car to the range?

A couple of months back I was a guest at an outdoor range where a co-worker is a member. Their S.O.P. is that they have a number of lawn/garden carts in the parking lot. People pile all their gear in a cart and wheel it up to the range. We had four people's worth of gear, with multiple firearms per person, plus ammo and accessories, all piled in that cart. There were muzzles pointing every which way, nobody seemed worried, and nobody complained.

 

[Erno86]

I was talking about naked guns being carried behind the firing pad on our range --- not a gun in a case; from a vehicle to the firing pad. Cleaning guns or the display of guns --- behind the firing pad is a different rule, whereby the previous rule does not pertain in that case --- Same goes for gun cases and guns behind the firing pad --- but the rule is still shady --- imho.

About guns in cases or an empty gun case on the firing pad having the muzzles not pointed downrange or up --- and I've seen it numerous times --- Pertaining to the perps who sweep one side of the firing range pad with the muzzle of there firearm, while they are taking the firearm in or out of the case; while on the firing pad. Muzzles are preferred not to be pointed down towards the firing pad, while putting it in or out the case --- due to a possible ND and bullet splatter.

 

[Erno86]

I talked to a fellow shooter at our range...who told me he had a ND with a loaded and cocked Ruger 22 Bisley revolver, while on our pistol range; when he put it in the case. The gun went off, with a resulting 22 rimfire bullet hole in the case --- Yes...he did have the muzzle pointed downrange, when the ND occurred.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

The original question seemed to be about cased firearms, and the act of casing or uncasing. Nothing else. I'm not the OP and I don't wish to hijack his discussion, but personally I would find it much less confusing if responses would just address the question that was asked.

The conversation was about keeping firearms pointed in a safe direction whilst putting in or taking out of cases. Some people felt this should extend to pointing cased firearms as well.

 

[g.willikers]

Is this conversation just about cased firearms, or when they are being uncased, as well?
Any dangers seem to be when they start being handled, not just when they are still safely packed.
It's the hands on part that causes concern, is it not?

 

[kilimanjaro]

Cased and being uncased is the question.

It wouldn't matter one whit which way the muzzle pointed if people would ensure their weapons were unloaded before removing the muzzle from it's downrange pointing and packing it away.

Since that seems to be too much effort for some people, at least an additional rule about safe pointing of cased weapons may reduce the risk of hitting someone when they go off during handling.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

Cased and being uncased is the question.

It wouldn't matter one whit which way the muzzle pointed if people would ensure their weapons were unloaded before removing the muzzle from it's downrange pointing and packing it away.

Since that seems to be too much effort for some people, at least an additional rule about safe pointing of cased weapons may reduce the risk of hitting someone when they go off during handling.

The transitions between handling and cased are the problems, on both ends.

Any time the firearm is coming under direct human control (being placed in or removed from the case) it MUST be handled in accordance with The 4 Rules. This means the muzzle end of the case must be pointed in a safe direction BEFORE and DURING all times that the human is going to touch the gun.

Adding a new rule abut what happens in between won't make lazy people unlazy. If they aren't following the existing rules, they won't follow the new rules either.

 

[buck460XVR]

Any time the firearm is coming under direct human control (being placed in or removed from the case) it MUST be handled in accordance with The 4 Rules. This means the muzzle end of the case must be pointed in a safe direction BEFORE and DURING all times that the human is going to touch the gun.


Adding a new rule abut what happens in between won't make lazy people unlazy. If they aren't following the existing rules, they won't follow the new rules either.

Pretty much. The incidence of true ADs in modern firearms is so rare, they are almost considered non-existent. This means that in order for someone to get hurt, 2 rules of the aforementioned 4 must be broken. IOWs, a cased gun should be a safe gun until it is handled outside the case, altho, I guess that in theory, one could pull the trigger thru the case.

While I consider muzzle control very important, I think some folks take it to the extreme. Cased guns in your trunk will at some point in your trip to the range, sweep someone. That CWC will, regardless of the rig it's in, at some point sweep someone. There was a thread in one of these gun forums a while back where a person was very upset that he got swept at a big box store by a guy with a scope on a stock.....no action or gun, just the empty stock. Sorry, but that's too much. Like gun control, we have all the safety rules we need already, if only folks would follow them.

 

[Erno86]

What really gets my goat at our 100 yard rifle range...is when I see some yahoo {and I've seen it happen} who has his rifle case behind the concrete firing pad lying down on the ground, breaking the 180 that has the case pointed down parallel of the firing pad by about two feet. Now...there is no written rule against that, as long as the rifle case is behind the firing pad, {but some savvy shooters at our range have wolfed at other shooters who have performed such a deed}.

But case in point...Is when I saw the yahoo who had just finished shooting his rifle --- but just before he put it in the open case that had broken the 180 --- He has the rifle pointed in the same direction about 4 inches above the case --- And as stupid is as stupid does...dry fires the rifle, while it was pointed at people that were standing on and behind the firing pad.