"Like a Saturday Night Special with a case of the Mumps..."

Kalindras

New member
Howdy, All!

Have been lurking about for some time, and have finally gotten around to registering and posting...

For an early post, I thought I'd ask about some of my favorite 'sidearms,' the Howdah pistols. I like them. I mean REALLY like them...maybe it's covering for some sort of, er...inadequacy, in my character, but I like the thought of a gun that makes a .50 AE look positively titchy.

That being said, is anybody making these great guns, nowadays? Either reproductions of the original double-barrels, or the equivalent? I've also seen these weapons referred to as 'Horse-Pistols' in a couple of places, although I've also seen that moniker put on SxS shotguns that were extremely sawed-off. Can anybody clarify what's what?

I'm guessing that these would be Class III weapons, but I can dream, can't I?

Anyway, thought I'd say, "Hi," so there you are...Hi!

Drew
 

Archer1440

New member
Here's a nice one... the genuine article.

http://www.adrax.com/watsons/howdah.htm


For those who don't know, Howdah pistols were the last-ditch defense against a tiger getting into your howdah, the box in which you sat atop the elephant you were riding in India...
The pistol might break your wrist, but it would- hopefully- deter the kitty cat.
 

Hand_Rifle_Guy

New member
Closest thing to a modern howdah pistol I've seen is a gun someone named the Monster for me.

It's my American Derringer Model 8 (8" barrel) chambered for the 7.62 x 39.

Not quite the same as a 16 guage, but I don't find myself needing to scrape tigers off my elephant all that often. But I bet it would do in a pinch. And it has the right flavor, as this is my "pocket double rifle".

And as I recall, most howdah pistols had rifled bores, and shot round balls. I've read about some chambered for the .577 snider British service round, and those had, what, 600 grain bullets? I don't think that would be a problem with BATF.

However, SXS actions are not particularly cheap, they would require initial certification as pistol actions, and there's very little market for them here in the US. Not enough tigers, I think.

Now as a custom proposition, your idea has merit, but how to make it accurate enough to be interesting...

I don't care. I want one. Go figure, with a net name like mine. Now, what caliber? .454? .45-70? 16 or 12 guage? I know! 10 guage! 2 ounce slugs at 1000 fps! Woohoo! 850 grains of lead, for two shots! Yeah! I'm all over that like a cheap suit. Now who can I convince to build me one...

Oh, by the way, let me be the first to say welcome to The Firing Line! You have made a very good choice. The folks here are second to none, despite the fact that they think I'm a little strange. (What the heck, I AM strange. I admit it freely. But they all forgive me anyhow. :D)
 

Dave R

New member
Would a Davis Derringer in .45LC qualify as a howdah?

How about in .45/70? YES, they make 'em.

Don't ask me to shoot it.
 

Gino

New member
Hey Kalindras,

Welcome to TFL, but don't expect me to be asking to shoot your guns much, okay? :D

Matter of fact, would you please warn me if you get the lane next to me? :p

FWIW, I used to work at a zoo an spent a little time with lions. They don't MAKE a gun big enough for the big cats! :eek:
 

Kalindras

New member
!!

Archer-- *DROOL* Now THAT'S what I'm talkin' about!! Double barrel .75 calibres!!! I'll take a broken wrist over a mauling, anyday!!

H_R_G and Dave--I'm not sure about the Derringer...the ones I've seen just don't have enough meat to them. Maybe a picture would correct my thinking, neh? One of the monsters I'd seen (I think it was in an old issue of Hand Gunner) actually had a retractable bayonet on it, too...two shots and then stab for all you're worth!!!

Gino--if I could afford an antique Howdah, I probably wouldn't be shooting it at paper, so I wouldn't worry too much!! :D Those things were meant to make stuff explode (melons, water jugs, VW Bugs...)

Another fav of mine is the LeMat. *SIGH* I have too expensive a taste in toys...that's why I had to take up making my own knives. I can't afford to buy them! Oh, well, if I learn gunsmithing, then I'll be able to open my own shop, I guess... :rolleyes:

Where do you guys get all of this cash?!? I read about folks out there that have a safe full of Kimbers and AR-15s and Barretts and Nitro Rifles...I'd have to knock over a bank to support my weaponry habit!! ;)
 

James K

Member In Memoriam
Golly, guys, I hate to rain on the "Howdah" parade, but any firearm using fixed ammunition and having a bore over 1/2 inch (except a conventional shotgun) is an "any other weapon" under the National Firearms Act. Means registration and a transfer tax. I am not sure of the status of the original "Howdah" pistols if made after 1898, but a newly made one would be under the law.

Jim
 

Hand_Rifle_Guy

New member
Aw, rats. Jim's right. I forgot about that little detail. Bore size for handguns is restricted to .50 cal.

Well, what the heck. if I become fabulously rich enough to have a custom howdah built, I'd be rich enough to afford to register it, and i'm no criminal, so it'd at least be possible. And if I'm THAT rich, I might as well just get a vintage one.

I went over to ADC and grabbed a picture of the mighty Model 8. Mine looks just like this. It does lack "meat" compared to the real McCoy, but I only suggested it tastes right intellectually, not that it's actually a real howdah.

M8.jpg


Without a doubt, the silliest derringer on the planet. Suits me down to the ground.

;):D;)
 

Rusty S

New member
HRG - what do you mean strange? You make more sense to me than anyone else here and I'm not strange! Not much, at least. Well maybe some....
 

Jim March

New member
Regarding that pic Archer1440 posted: wouldn't you love to see the hidden camera view of a mugger's face if somebody pulled THAT on him?

:D

As to legality: if it's percussion muzzle-loading, anything goes! Well, at least per Fed law. You could take a Pedersoli percussion double 12 or 10ga shotgun kit, pistol-grip it, and chop the barrels to 8" :). You can also make a rifled version of something similar, or a 75cal percussion revolver based on scaling up the Colt Walker or something :).

I'm still trying to figure out if the Calif ban on sawed-off shotguns applies to muzzle-loading percussion/flintlock guns. I know the NFA rules don't...that's why the LeMat repros are legal despite having a 6" .63cal smoothbore barrel.
 

Crimper-D

New member
It's only a single barrel, but.....

It's 54Cal!!! Yes it's a BP gun, but guaranteed to clean Kitty's clock!;) ...Was originally designed to back up single shot Hawkin rifles on Grizzley Bears:eek:
A couple of good points = You can build your own from a kit, it's a Lyman Plains Pistol ( also avilable in 50Cal for sissies;) )
It packs a real wallop, even with BP or Pyrodex, cause you can load the thing with 54Cal sabots that will take .44Cal pistol bullets with about the same energy as a .44mag.
Definately something I'd want in _my_ howda!:D
(Or in my truck if attacked on the freeway by a berserk 16-wheeler):cool:
 

James K

Member In Memoriam
No problem with a muzzle loader, but can someone else test that 10 gauge pistol? My wrist broke just thinking about it.

Jim
 

Hand_Rifle_Guy

New member
Well, the 10 guage is more an intellectual excersize than anything else. I'm not all that sure I'd want to fire it either, and I have some of the hardest kicking handguns on the planet.

Now that idea about the muzzle-loaders is a right good one. I thought of that in the middle of the night. If I could come up with rifled bores in suitably large caliber, (.54-.58 is NOT enough.) I might could be convinced to build one. Muzzle-loaders are not regulated, so I think that it would even work for smoothbores, legal-wise.

I mean, in a pinch, or in the jaws, as the case may be, you don't have the time to reload anyhow. You're just supposed to grab another gun, "New york Reload" style. A pair of twelve-bore doubles would be just the ticket.

Hey! has anyone else seen a movie called "Buck and the Preacher"? Buck was a black wagon-train scout leading freed slaves out west, and he had a pair of o/u muzzle-loaders that just about fill the bill. I haven't seen the movie for years, but it was mighty good. I wish that I'd payed more attention to the guns, but that pre-dated my being bitten by the gun bug, and they weren't so fascinating then. The Preacher was an oily spanish character with a "funny Bible", that was cut out for a DA revolver. Great movie, starring nobody famous that I can remember. I've only seen it twice, ever. Once in junior high, in like the late seventies, as a lunchtime special activity at my school, and once in the mid-eighties on late night T.V.. Now I'm going to have to track it down. It's got some great lines in it.

Rusty, I AM a bit odd, even by my standards, although I like to think of myself as "Unique". I've never met anyone even REMOTELY similar to me in all my born days. I'M forced to think I have a pretty peculiar mindset. And as for the board, well, ask Tamara what she thinks of the Monster, and then do a search for the "Target Guy" thread. Or just search up some of my other posts, here and there. You'll see.
 

Kalindras

New member
Well, if you're up for it...

Hey, H_R_G,

I have a thought for you, if you're looking to smith up something terrifying... ".50 calibre Pepperbox"

The barrels are out there, the action is already a known, so it should just be a matter of scaling it up a tad, and buying a good, stout, wrist brace... :D

You build it, I'll test it...for free, even!!! Ain't I a sweetie?

;)

That, or if you're a REAL man (a real RICH man, that is), you could get a Kodiak double-rifle in .72 from Cabella's, and saw that puppy down/pistol-grip it!

No, I've not seen that film, but I'm currently searching for a film I saw as a kid, and I have no idea of the title...main characters were a knife-throwing trapper/gambler type, and a gambler/gunfighter whose toy was a lever-action rifle built into a Banjo...talk about your weird concealment packages...


Oh, HI! Jim!! I'm over from BF...glad to see ya!

Drew
 

Hand_Rifle_Guy

New member
A finger-bore pepperbox. Now that's an interesting idea. Sort of like those Lancaster multi-barrel mostosities from the 1880's. You could get those in .577 Revolver. I've even seen one, but it was $3500, and ammo doesn't exist, unless you make it out of cut-down .470 Nitro Express brass. But I digress, as we're talking muzzle guns here. A fat-bore pepperbox with say, 4 bores in 16 guage, wouldn't be TOO fat, and I get more shots. Hmmm. I'm going to have to let that idea percolate some. I like it.

Cabela's has Kodiaks, do they? .72 bore? That's 12 guage by any other name. Sounds about right. OK, I'll take two please. Where's my chop saw? I can play gun-buy-back show, and chop 'em in a shower of sparks. Wheee! 1 1/3 once round balls, at about 1000-ish fps. That'll do nicely. Or maybe saboted slugs of more conventional design. 1-ouncers at 1000 fps, in a SXS action wouldn't be much worse than a .475 Linebaugh out of a single action. Barrels cut to 10-14 inches would work fine, and be sufficiently heavy to be shootable, especially if I set the grip up like an SA grip so the gun rolls when you shoot it. Being a professional woodworker, and a fairly accomplished carver, stock modifications are right up my alley.

I need a link to Cabela's. How much do those Kodiaks run these days? 3 grand? 4? Where's my lottery ticket? Gotta get those brainwaves a-workin' to make those little balls line up for ME this time.

BTW, I got relatives out in Quitman, someways east of the Ol' Metroplex. Have to stop and say hi if'n I ever manage to make my way out there again. I'll let you shoot the Monster, and you can find out what a pocket double rifle's all about. Mostly, though, its about face-slapping muzzle blast, and pain.

But that's the fun part, don't you see? Pain is my friend. Allow me to introduce it to you! It'll be loads of fun, trust me! ;););)
 

Kalindras

New member
Nah, you can pick 'em up cheap!!

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/t...ommon/catalog/pod-link.jhtml.2_A&_DAV=0006563

Try $680 for .72!! Get a pair, you'll need more shots!!

So, Quitman, heh? C'mon down! We'll wander out to the range, and tickle that Monster!!

"...Pain is an illusion of the mind..." It's also, if you judge by my past, a blood relative on my ma's side...

Are you a gunsmith/stock-maker professionally, or what flavour of woodwork do you do?

Drew

edited 'cause the sodding URL went bad... :rolleyes:
 

Hand_Rifle_Guy

New member
Hey! Those are actually within reach! I still have to get in the black financially, but it looks possible!

Ah...pain. Let's you know you're not dead.

Not a professional gunsmith, just an amatuer, but a professional collector for sure. I used to buy guns about every five minutes, back when work was constant. Laid-off you see. A distressingly common ailment these days, but I expect regular employment this week, no less.

I started out as a machinist, building ultra-precision high-vacuum manifolds for use in Hewlett-packard mass spectrometers. That got me into metal working, and I did that for a couple of years until it got boring. Stainless tubing has a personality, though. And when you pull a "T" out of a straight tube, it gets downright ornery. That job gave me a very good grounding in metal-forming, as it was a small shop, and I performed ALL the operations neccessary to make these things, except welding the parts together, as I was the only guy there! Did it all on surplus military machines off of Navy ships, that were built in 1942! i'm also an excellent polisher, a skill that's easy to learn, and difficult to master. Polishing is the LAST step for metal gun parts, and screwing up at that point is going backwards. Not something that's acceptable in my work.

From there I bumbled into retail store fixtures while working for a custom designer. All sorts of weird stuff at that job, and lots of odd materials. Woods, acrylics, laminates, sheet metal, foam casting, the works. After that, I went into straight-up cabinetry, working for a small custom shop building kitchens and fine furniture for affluent folks in the Bay Area who had too much money. Did that for eleven years or so, and built a lot of fabulous stuff. Cabinets by the yard, beds, over-the-top conference tables, custom furniture for the rich folks and their yuppie friends. The dot-com boom kept me busy. From there I got hired by a union stair shop, where I was a senior shop carpenter (union term) building staircases that would make your eyes water out of large pieces of rain forest/I mean "exotic hardwoods". Think long curving staircases in giant mansions, with elaborate handrails and wild paneling. Neat stuff, as stairs are regarded as the top level of carpentry in the woodworking industry. Stairs are essentialy one solid unit after they're installed, and it's like building a jewelry case 15' tall, that has to fit right the FIRST time! I've built a lot of fine jewelry cases back at the fixture job, and those skills definitely came in handy! I got the carving skills from the custom cabinet shop initially, as we made a lot of "Neo-classic" furniture, victorian/chippendale rip-off stuff, with lots of frilly decoration. From that, I got into carving for myself, and do it as a hobby when I can't go shooting. For fun I have carved Hobby-horses, except they have dragon heads, or ducks, or other kinds of fanciful critters, (did one unicorn, the "normal-ist one of the bunch.) sort of like miniature carousel horses, but the heads only. Closet poles for the bodies, with a wooden wheel set in to the end. My cousins kids are probably the envy of their friends, and thos toys are heirloom quality. I like to make treasures, as they will be permanent contributions to the beautiful things in the world, and no-one will throw them away. And I build stuff to last. I expect the things I make to outlast me, just like fine antiques outlived they're makers.

This combination of skills drew me to guns, as they are the ultimate expression of artistic wood and metal craft. Though about custom knives for a bit, but when I started researching it, I found out there's about a million custom knife makers in the world. Harder to wow the folks with all that competitiion around, and basically, knives are just to easy. It's easy to spend more on a gun than on some of the staircases I built, and those were a looong way from cheap. Most ran about $65,000-$75,000 each. Those exotic woods cost, and stairs are fairly material intensive.

I've made 4 sets of handgun grips so far. the ones on my Webley are wild. I'll put a picture of them up one of these days. I've yet to actually make a rifle stock, but I've got a special piece of walnut stashed, just waiting for me to get my own shop set up. You wait. I'll be making stocks that'll curl your hair one of these days. (Gotta make some sort of a sample thingy to send off to Tony Galazan, or maybe Rigby in Paso Robles, and offer them my services, provided like how their shop is set up. That's how I get jobs these days. I interview the employer,and see if THEY impress ME, not the other way around. :D)

Ultimately, I would like to build fine double guns in the best English tradition. I'm VERY persnickity about quality, and I know now that I'm one of the best in my field at what I do. That came as a revelation, as I discovered that most professional wood guys don't much care about quality beyond "good enough to get it out the door", an attitude that I find reprehensible. I think It has to be done RIGHT, not just good enough. That, and the attitude of "not enough time to do it well, but always enough time to do it over" utterly fails to win points with me.:rolleyes:

That attitude must pay, as people pester me for side jobs all the time, which I usually turn down, as forty hours a week on other people's work is enough for me because I have projects of my own to do! I can't complain too much about that, though. Side work has been paying the bills lately.
 
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