Light small calibers vs. big heavies??

Pointer

New member
oooooooooooooooooooooooohhhhh!
Have fun with this one!! :eek:

A "Hot wash" from a young Marine just in from the combat zone...

Got this from a former Marine first sergeant - thought you might be
interested in his son's assessment of weapons and enemy tactics in Iraq.

Hello to all my fellow gunners, military buffs, veterans and interested
guys. A couple of weekends ago I got to spend time with my son Jordan, who
was on his first leave since returning from Iraq. He is well (a little thin), and
already bored. He will be returning to Iraq for a second tour in early '06 and
has already re-enlisted early for 4 more years. He loves the Marine Corps
and is actually looking forward to returning to Iraq.

Jordan spent 7 months at "Camp Blue Diamond" in Ramadi. Aka: Fort Apache.
He saw and did a lot and the following is what he told me about weapons,
equipment, tactics and other miscellaneous info which may be of interest to
you. Nothing is by any means, classified. No politics here, just a Marine
with a bird's eye view's opinions:

1) The M-16 rifle : Thumbs down. Chronic jamming problems with the talcum
powder like sand over there. The sand is everywhere. Jordan says you feel
filthy 2 minutes after coming out of the shower. The M-4 carbine version is
more popular because it's lighter and shorter, but it has jamming problems
also. They like the ability to mount the various optical gunsights and
weapons lights on the picattiny rails, but the weapon itself is not great in
a desert environment. They all hate the 5.56mm (.223) round. Poor
penetration on the cinderblock structure common over there and even torso
hits cant be reliably counted on to put the enemy down. Fun fact: Random
autopsies on dead insurgents shows a high level of opiate use.

2) The M243 SAW (squad assault weapon): .223 cal. Drum fed light machine
gun. Big thumbs down. Universally considered a piece of sh__. Chronic
jamming problems, most of which require partial disassembly. (that's fun in
the middle of a firefight).

3) The M9 Beretta 9mm: Mixed bag. Good gun, performs well in desert
environment; but they all hate the 9mm cartridge. The use of handguns for
self-defense is actually fairly common. Same old story on the 9mm: Bad guys
hit multiple times and still in the fight.

4) Mossberg 12ga. Military shotgun: Works well, used frequently for
clearing houses to good effect.

5) The M240 Machine Gun: 7.62 Nato (.308) cal. belt fed machine gun,
developed to replace the old M-60 (what a beautiful weapon that was!!).
Thumbs up. Accurate, reliable, and the 7.62 round puts 'em down. Originally
developed as a vehicle mounted weapon, more and more are being dismounted
and taken into the field by infantry. The 7.62 round chews up the structure
over there.

6) The M2 .50 cal heavy machine gun: Thumbs way, way up. "Ma deuce" is
still worth her considerable weight in gold. The ultimate fight stopper,
puts them in the dirt every time. The most coveted weapon in-theater.

7) The .45 pistol: Thumbs up. Still the best pistol round out there.
Everybody authorized to carry a sidearm is trying to get their hands on one.
With few exceptions, can reliably be expected to put 'em down with a torso
hit. The special ops guys (who are doing most of the pistol work) use the
HK military model and supposedly love it. The old 1911 government model .45's
are being re-issued en masse.

8) The M-14: Thumbs up. They are being re-issued in bulk, mostly in a
modified version to special ops guys. Modifications include lightweight
Kevlar stocks and low power red dot or ACOG sights. Very reliable in the
sandy environment, and they love the 7.62 round.

9) The Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle: Thumbs way up. Spectacular range and
accuracy and hits like a freight train. Used frequently to take out vehicle
suicide bombers (we actually stop a lot of them) and barricaded enemy.
Definitely here to stay.

10) The M24 sniper rifle: Thumbs up. Mostly in .308 but some in 300 win
mag. Heavily modified Remington 700's. Great performance. Snipers have
been used heavily to great effect. Rumor has it that a marine sniper on his
third tour in Anbar province has actually exceeded Carlos Hathcock's record
for confirmed kills with OVER 100.

11) The new body armor: Thumbs up. Relatively light at approx. 6 lbs. and
can reliably be expected to soak up small shrapnel and even will stop an
AK-47 round. The bad news: Hot as **** to wear, almost unbearable in the
summer heat (which averages over 120 degrees). Also, the enemy now goes for
head shots whenever possible. All the bull___ about the "old" body armor
making our guys vulnerable to the IED's was a non-starter. The IED explosions
are enormous and body armor doesn't make any difference at all in most cases.

12) Night Vision and Infrared Equipment: Thumbs way up. Spectacular
performance. Our guys see in the dark and own the night, period. Very
little enemy action after evening prayers. More and more enemy being
whacked at night during movement by our hunter-killer teams. We've all seen
the videos.

13) Lights: Thumbs up. Most of the weapon mounted and personal lights are
Surefire's, and the troops love 'em. Invaluable for night urban operations.
Jordan carried a $34 Surefire G2 on a neck lanyard and loved it.

I cant help but notice that most of the good fighting weapons and ordnance
are 50 or more years old!!!!!!!!!
With all our technology, it's the WWII
and Vietnam era weapons that everybody wants!!!! The infantry fighting is
frequent, up close and brutal. No quarter is given or shown.


I love it when the good guys win! :D

And this is not the whole letter...
 

JohnKSa

Administrator
This has been posted before and discredited.

The letter was certainly not written by a Marine, and if it was written by a member of one of the other services, it's safe to say that it's not anyone with weapons experience.
 

JohnKSa

Administrator
Wrong weapon designations, wrong weapons for the Marines, etc.

If you ever find DO a Marine who doesn't know what to call the Marine issue weapons, don't take any weapons advice from him. ;)
 

Pointer

New member
Thanks

But I haven't been active in the service for 40 years...

So I wouldn't know all the proper designations either...

Also note... the info was purported to be "second hand" from his son???

Is it possible that could explain his clumsiness in nomenclature??

If you could give me something more that I can offer to my friends and the fellow who sent it to us???

Thanks again...

The damned liars seem to really foul up the world... :mad:
 
LOL believe it or not a lot of military guys say clip instead of magazine, and many SEALS from the Vietnam era thought the M-60 fired .60 caliber bullets...

Whatever... That in and of itself proves nothing.

And it doesn't really matter because its one person, who almost certainly hasn't seen enough cases to determine if a caliber is effective enough or not, the times he has seen the 9mm fail could have been flukes.
 

roberts_usmc

New member
Ok, what bull****.

I think some of it is correct, but some is just bull. When in good repair, the M16 takes a lot of crap before it fails. I've seen them fire with mud coating the fricking bolt. You might end up tapping the foward assist a time or two, but a good functioning M16 is hard to jam up. The same as the M249, when in good repair, you might do a little immediate action on it once in a while.
And I call BS on them raving about the 240G and then putting down the SAW. They function quite similarly, so if one is going down from sand, the other would be too. And the M2 being the most "coveted weapon" in theatre? Yeah, maybe for what it does... Would you want to dismount with a .50? Do you want to make one well aimed shot with an M2? I doubt it.

As far as "special forces" teams and the M14, blah blah.... The M14 is seeing use with designated marksman. And the special forces teams aren't, "getting most of the pistol work."

Rubish IMO.
 

CraZkid

Moderator
Mud is one thing, ultra fine blowing sand is another entirely. Tolerances are very tight in the M-16, everything is packed very close. A little sand getting itself worked in will cause headaches. That is why the AK is so prevalant. Do you think that desert nations buy them cause they are cheap? These guys are swiming in oil money and can get whatever they want. They want the AK. You can darn near bury it in the sand and it will still go bang; because all the components have lots of room to move. Daniel Stoner even admitted that during the famous Stoner/Kalishnikov interveiw.
 

Mikeyboy

New member
Like everyone said, this is one of those internet E-mails that has been floating aroung for some time now. I would take the info with a grain of salt. Check with the real guys coming back, or I encourage you guys to read postings and contribute to www.anysoldier.com or www.adoptasniper.com, the holidays are coming.
 

Duxman

New member
Spoken to my brother-in-law who is a Navy Seal Sniper- and the statement above is false in at least one regard: The .50 Barrett Sniper rifle has below average accuracy. The only thing its good for is anti-vehicle or emplacement destruction.

I have also read some first hand accounts from other sources that the 9mm Beretta is a good man stopper even when loaded with the 147 grain military ball cartridge.

So I would disregard most of this report. Sounds like someone trying to promote the "bigger" is better myth.
 

CraZkid

Moderator
The Barret .50 is used by Explosive Ordanance Disposal Technicans to take out fuses at over a mile. And it is innaccurate? I'll belive that when your "brother-in-law" shows me his coin!
 

JohnKSa

Administrator
The SAW (which stands for Squad Automatic Weapon, NOT Squad Assault Weapon) is the M249, not the M243. It is not drum fed, it is belt fed. The comments about it being unreliable are not supported by those who have experience with it. It was originally issued with a plastic box to hold the loaded belt (which could be confused with a drum if you don't know anything about the weapon) but now some units are being issued nylon bag belt holders instead.

The comment about dismounting the M240 machine guns is strange. While many are used as vehicle mount weapons, there are also a large number (most?) of them intended for use dismounted. So there wouldn't really be a need to dismount one to carry one.

Special Ops guys, by all reports are using various pistols, but no H&K pistols--certainly not in any quantity.

The M14 is not being reissued in bulk, and the few that are being reissued do not have Kevlar stocks.

The M4 is not a commonly issued weapon in the Marines. The M16A4 is the general issue weapon for the Marines, the Army uses the M4.

The Marine sniper rifle is the M40, not the M24. The M24 is the Army Sniper rifle. AND, if he did actually mean the M24, it is not currently available in the 300Win Mag chambering.

Marines use mostly Benelli and some Remington shotguns, the Army uses Mossberg.

The comments about 6lb body armor stopping rifle rounds are off target. I believe that the current vests, when fully equipped to stop rifle rounds weigh over 20 lbs.

The comment about opiate use is puzzling since there have been zero other reports of this in Iraq. Makes me think that this was originally written for/about some other conflict and is being recycled.

There are no reports of 1911 pistols being issued in any significant quantities.

I believe the Iraqis used 152mm howitzers, not 155mm.

Someone clearly did some cursory research on military weapons and then cooked it all up in one pot without realizing that the different branches of the service use different weapons.

Sure, some might be typos or innocent mistakes, but when you take it all together this is obviously something someone cooked up to support their pet theories. They're not even real subtle about it. :rolleyes:
 

Harley Quinn

Moderator
I like the M14 and the M16

One is as good for what it does as the other, for what it does. Sure there is a lot of dust but the down time is big, as in 'boring' I would think.
So it gives them something to do besides play with themselves (Jarhead movie).
I don't feel that the regular troops know much more then what they are told.
If you are in a fire team or squad, you have what you have (USMC), that is how it is designed. Some changes are made at critical times but as a general rule you carry what you are issued. Lots of rules.

Robert_USMC some have asked if you are, or arnt, but you have not answered. What is it?

If the Marine Corps wanted you to have a wife they would have issued you one. Does that sound like someone who thinks for themselves???
Unfortunate but true. Probably why I resent that so much in later years. You got to think! Or else the one who thinks, will be telling you what to do.

Harley
 

roberts_usmc

New member
I've never been called out on being a Marine... did I say some **** that made me seem like I was some wannabe?

See my reply on my "that pawnshop sucks" thread.
 

JohnKSa

Administrator
No problem.

I caught a few of the glitches, but I checked threads on at least three forums to put that post together. I certainly can't claim credit for all of it. Jeff White, a moderator at THR was the source for a good bit of the information.
 

Ozzieman

New member
Have a friend that just returned with the 160th.

Much of what you said he would not agree with.
There was some 16 problems but from what he told me it was more of a proper care issue, TOO MUCH OIL.
And he also said the newer M4 (I think) every one loves. Getting your head 2 or 3 inches lower (without the handle) gets your head lower.
Out side of that he really had few complaints other than the MumV.
That piece of junk he said should have be built with a target on the side, one of his first jobs was to go comerdear a white truck. seems like the most common over there is a white truck (jap).
 

Duxman

New member
CrazyKid - I reported that my bro in law said that the Barrett .50 was "below average" accuracy - never did I say it was inaccurate. He went through SEAL sniper training and for his money the best anti-personnel rifle was the .300 WIN MAG. It has more than enough power to take out a human @ 1500 yards and superior trajectory ballistics as well. The .50 is not as accurate as the .300 WIN MAG, and is overkill.

He reported that for the .300 - he can place the round within a half-inch accuracy @ 1500 yards on a moving target (footspeed walking). While on the .50 it varied anywhere from 2 inches to 4 inches. Now if I could shoot like that, I would take either weapon.
 

Koz

New member
I believe the Iraqis used 152mm howitzers, not 155mm.

The Iraqi army actualy had a large arsenal of excellent 155m G5 howitzers from South Africa. They actually had a longer range then then Paladins we use.
 
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