Liberator

[Rifleman1776]

Even though traditional style muzzle loaders are my passion, I do have, and use, some modern firearms. And, my real passion in life is the history of freedom and how firearms were part of the process in countries acquiring that freedom.
During the Second World War, the U.S. provided French and German citizens with a really cheaply made single shot pistol called the Liberator. It shot the .45 acp round and stored a few extras in the grip. I have heard it said the Liberator accounted for the deaths of more (Reich) German soldiers than all other means.
I have only seen a Liberator once and that was at the G. M. Davis Gun Museum at Claremore, Oklahoma.
I'm wondering if these have much collector value. And, really, are there many originals out there? I think it would be a thrill to have one. I would display next to my Revolutionary period flintlock long rifle.

 

[egor20]

Here you go rifleman1776

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192440

 

[aarondhgraham]

Used ones are out there,,,

I've seen several at gun shows in the past 3-5 years,,,
Pricey as all heck though.

Here is a place that is making reproductions,,,
Click here please.

Aarond

 

[Mike Irwin]

"I have heard it said the Liberator accounted for the deaths of more (Reich) German soldiers than all other means."

I find that impossible to believe.

While over 1 million Liberators were produced, very few were actually distributed, and virtually none were air dropped over occupied areas in Europe.

Most Liberators that went to occupied areas went to China or the Philippines, and there weren't a lot of Germans there.

 

[Rifleman1776]

That earlier link was loaded with info.
Thanks. Despite the controversy/ies, it is an interesting part of history.

 

[SDC]

This same basic idea was resurrected during the Vietnam War, with a similar lack of success; the Vietnam-era "Deer Gun" was a single-shot 9mm die-cast pistol with a screw-in barrel and a cocking piece at the rear that you'd pull back to allow the sear to catch. They made a limited number of these, but then realized that the vast majority of these would end up getting into enemy hands, and scrapped the idea.
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Deer_Gun_-_Vietnam_Pistol.jpg

 

[44 AMP]

My info agrees with Mike.

ALthough the idea was to drop them into Occuppied Europe, only a handful (if that) actually were. More were distributed in the Phillippines, but not many there, either.

Liberators I have seen for sale lately go $800 and up. And they are a smoothbore, so there were not a legal gun some places. I'n not sure the C&R status, but if not a "curio" they would be an NFA weapon. Someone more expert on C&R will have to speak on that point, I just don't know.

I did read a firing report of one, not too long ago. A collector got one, and decided to actually try it out. But he was hesitant to use ball ammo, so he used a 200gr load. At about 7yds, the gun was a couple of FEET off point of aim. So, it appears that if you stuck one in the belly of a Nazi, or the back of a son of Dai Nippon, you would probably hit them, but from a few feet away, good luck!

Their use was probably not pushed, due to the simple fact that if you could get close enough to hit an enemy soldier, a knife would work just as well, and be a lot quieter!

Interesting historical piece though.

 

[James K]

I have not seen any solid evidence that even ONE enemy soldier was ever shot with a Liberator, or that any were ever air dropped anywhere at any time. Some were reportedly sent to the Philippines and used there by local police in the post-war period until they could obtain better weapons, and some were sent to China but again too late for use against the Japanese.

The vast majority were dumped in the ocean or scrapped, which is why they are rare today.

The idea was based on a fiction story and predicated on the idea that a conquered people, given guns, will rise in mass and destroy the occupying forces. Nice idea, but not realistic, and it didn't happen; most people in occupied Europe were more concerned with surviving than with fighting, and the real resistance forces were given far better weapons than the Liberator.

Not to mention that the stories usually say the pistols were just "kicked out of planes by the ton" (as one myth has it). In that case, a Frenchman might not feel too good toward the Americans or British who put that big hole in his roof even if the falling gun missed him!

(BTW, the Liberator, even though a smoothbore pistol, has been declared a C&R by BATFE and removed from the purview of the NFA.)

Jim

 

[SIGSHR]

The version I read (forget where of course) was that the Liberator was meant to be used at pointblank range to relieve an enemy soldier of his weapon. Each came with a page of pictures only instructions to overcome any language barrier and a wooden dowel to eject cases.

 

[hardworker]

I think that it was designed as a demoralization tool more than a practical one. The goal was just spam occupied Europe with them just to make the Germans that much more demoralized. I guess they realized that it wasn't that good of an idea since they never did it.

 

[James K]

Yep, SHGSHR, that was the idea. Now imagine the scene:

A tired French housewife, heading for home with her baguette after fighting the rationing system to get a bit of bread and some vegetables, finds this strange box on the street. She stops, picks it up, opens it and finds - A GUN!!! Following the directions, she loads the gun and immediately becomes an avenging Jeanne d'Arc, heading off to slay Les Allemands and drive the invaders from the sacred soil of La Belle France!

Sure.

Not to mention that the box would have buried itself a foot deep in that sacred soil or been destroyed by hitting the pavement.

Jim

 

[Mike Irwin]

Uhmmmmmmm....

It was NEVER the intention for the Americans to fly over at a couple hundred feet and simply sling these things out of the door willy nilly.

That would be stupid.

The intention was to get these things into occupied territories the way they got a LOT of other weapons, food, radios, explosives, and people, into the occupied territories during the war...

By arranging either low-level package drops by parachute, or by flying them in in small quantities in planes like the Gloster Gladiator or the Westland Lysander, both of which saw frequent use doing exactly that.

The entire concept behind the Liberator was to provide a passably usable pistol that fit into a VERY small, very transportable package. That way you could get a lot more of them into a cargo container than, say, a rifle or even a submachine gun.

Resistance groups in the occupied territory, the ones who were going to be meeting their air drop or the aircraft in the first place, would then distribute the Liberators to their members. (And they wouldn't do it by flinging them willy nilly as they bicycled down the local roads, either. )

Those members would then use said weapons to ambush occupying troops and get their weapons.

The perceived advantages to that plan included resistance fighters being armed with enemy weapons for which there was a hopefully ready supply of ammunition and parts. Plus, since your resistance cell is now (hopefully) armed with a continuing way of obtaining weapons, you can stuff things other than weapons or ammunition into those cargo panniers.

 

[James K]

But that was exactly the idea. The whole thing was the result of Winston Churchill reading John Steinbeck's The Moon is Down, in which aircraft drop explosives (not guns) by parachute over the whole area of an occupied village, enabling the villagers to fight the enemy.

Tons of cheap weapons dropped at random was the idea; targeted drops to already existing resistance forces was the reality. But if you are going to drop guns to real (not mythical) fighters, why not drop better weapons? And that is what they did. STEN guns, No. 4 rifles, US carbines, BREN guns, PIATs, Enfield and S&W revolvers, hand and rifle grenades, blocks of TNT, all were dropped or landed to equip resistance forces. No Liberator pistols.

As to being just dropped, without parachute, the original story had parachutes. But I have heard a dozen stories about "kicking the boxes out of the door", "tossing them out the window" and similar comments. Never happened, with or without parachutes.

Jim

 

[Mike Irwin]

Wrong, Jim.

That was, as you said, Churchill's idea.

Along with a lot of very good ideas, Churchill had a lot of very silly ideas that were recognized as being very, VERY silly.

This was one of them.

Once the concept of the Liberator actually came into fruition, the "carpet bomb the occupied territories with them" plan was summarily dismissed as a waste of resources.

Simply put, it was an INITIAL concept that was never carried forward once the plan actually took off.

Just because someone (even Churchill) originally proposed it doesn't mean that the plan was adopted, stayed that way, or was implemented.

By the time the Liberators were turned over to the OSS, the "carpet bomb" concept had been LONG abandoned in favor of controlled drops, then in favor of no drops at all.

 

[James K]

Nonetheless, Mike, that WAS the original concept; it just depends on what you consider "original". Obviously, the "original" idea was never put into practice; I have no idea how seriously it was considered, but it was discussed at high levels. But I can't conceive of anyone deciding to go to the trouble and expense of shipping arms to resistance groups and then sending Liberators when a STEN would fit in the same space as two cheap pistols and would be a heckuva lot more effective.

At that time, one of the blessings/curses of the OSS was the large number of college professors and college boys, idealists and dreamers who went into "intelligence". Many of them were full of ideas to win the war, but had little or no practical knowledge or experience. Some of them cracked the Enigma, or made other valuable contributions to the war effort. But there are a couple of books about some of the wilder ideas on which the British and Americans wasted valuable resources. The Liberator pistol was one, but my favorite was "The Great Panjandrum."

(The Germans wasted even more on wild ideas, but most of those came from the "great mind" of one man, Adolf Hitler.)

Jim

 

[Mike Irwin]

Of course it was discussed at high levels -- most things that are conceived at high levels immediately gain the rights of discussion and consideration at those same levels.

And yes, mass dropping in a helter skelter fashion WAS the original concept. But once again, those plans changed in the face of reality. It's the RARE plan that actually goes through from start to finish unchanged.

One of the primary reasons why the Liberator was considered over the Sten and similar weapons was because 12 or more of them could be shipped in the same space it took to ship a single Sten.

Another consideration was that they were immensely cheaper than a Sten to manufacture, no mean feat considering how cheap the sten was to make.

Yet another consideration is that at time of conception there weren't a lot of surplus Stens, or other weapons, to go around; they were being used to arm soldiers who were going into the primary fight. The British were still having a tough time supplying their own troops, and the United States was bringing a massive military force online and was also having problems getting its arms production up to snuff.

That was the entire concept behind giving resistance forces a weapon they could use to "liberate" weapons from the enemy.

 

[Winchester_73]

I'm amazed that liberators are being made as repros today. Many people still don't know what they are and some people don't know the history
But thanks to Mike and Jim, we have 2 different versions of the history, both are true, as per their own opinions.

I hope to find one someday being offered as a cap gun. Hey, it could happen.

 

[Last Knight]

The Great Panjandrum was intended as a diversion, wasn't it? Something the Germans could focus on and think the Allies were wasting their time?

 

[Famas]

I used to have a fascination with this weapon. Over many years I have spoken to veteran Maquis and Resistance members, as well as many curators of war museums. They all said the same thing: They never saw a Liberator pistol, nor have they ever heard of it.

 

[James K]

Hi, Last Knight,

As you can tell from the discussion between Mike and myself, it is not easy to determine at this point in time what folks intended or were thinking about in those dark and dangerous days, when everyone was hoping for some magic weapon to defeat the apparently undefeatable Axis powers.

But as far as I can tell from reading, the Great Panjandrum was a serious project. The problem was a way to get around, over or through sea walls on the Normandy coast. If they could roll a big drum of explosives up to the wall, then either it could climb the wall and wreck what was behind it or blow a big hole in it. I have seen no indication that it was a diversion, though that would be an easy claim for its supporters and developers to make after the fact. ("Of course it failed, but we never expected it to work; it was really only a diversion, heh, heh.")

The trouble was that like the Confederate two-barrel cannon (which was intended to fire two balls with a chain stretched between them, thus mowing down Yankees) it was impossible to get the rocket charges on each "wheel" to fire in the proper order or those on the opposite wheels to fire together. Like other "secret weapons" it was an expensive failure.

Jim