lets say im at wal mart and some crazy person.....

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cajun47

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whips out a gun and yells at the service desk "give me all the money!"

im standing nearby, i have a ccw and a kel tec pf-9 in my pocket with 7 rounds of powerball +p 9mm.

best thing to do is lay low out of his site but get my pf-9 out of my pocket at the ready?

if i lay low he may kill someone. would i be justified in shooting him before he shoots someone? this is what im not sure of.

i would indeed put 3 quick rounds in his chest if he did start shooting. am i right to shoot him even if he never pointed a gun at me? i would think so.
 
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Redworm

Moderator
And if it's just some stupid kid with an airsoft gun thinking he's being funny?

A gun is your absolute LAST line of defense. You draw when there is an imminent and clear threat to life.
 
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glockman19

New member
NO Your only obligation it to protect yourself and those around you. If he shot then I beleive you would be justified as you /I would/could feel your life were in iminent danger.

YOU ARE NOT LEO.

Either way you'd likely be arrested.

and...

Should you miss and he shoots someone else instead of leavein you could be charged in the innocent bystandard's death/injury too.
 
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cajun47

New member
roger. i hate to say it but i guess i would have to wait until he shoots someone before i shoot him.
 
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cajun47

New member
"Either way you'd likely be arrested."

hmmm. best thing for me is to run and hide in a corner with my gun while other people get slaughtered if i don't want legal trouble. that would be hard to do. what if its another vt type thing. can anyone with a gun just hide while the bad guy murders 30+ people?
 
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JuanCarlos

New member
A gun is your absolute LAST line of defense. You draw when there is an imminent and clear threat to life.
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But what qualifies as an imminent danger? I'd say if somebody is pointing a gun at another person that certainly should qualify...since the line between "clear threat" to life and "dead person" is less than a second wide.

But yes, you run both the risk that the gun isn't real, or the deaths of others due to your escalation and/or missing and hitting a bystander. Both might expose you to both criminal and civil liability, and lots of it. But I'm no lawyer.

Since there's a fair probability that he'll simply take the money and leave, I'd say that the wisest decision, from both a tactical and legal standpoint, is to get your firearm ready (out of sight) and wait. If he shoots, you're up. I'd say if he tries to take anybody with him, you're up (morally...legally, probably not). Aside from that, your firing risks doing much more harm than good.
 
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JuanCarlos

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hmmm. best thing for me is to run and hide in a corner with my gun while other people get slaughtered if i don't want legal trouble. that would be hard to do. what if its another vt type thing. can anyone with a gun just hide while the bad guy murders 30+ people?
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No, as soon as he starts actually shooting people you'd probably be in the clear. And yes, somebody with a gun can justify "hiding" before the criminal fires the first shot, since firing on him is just as likely to cause death (and possibly more of them) to bystanders.

But yeah, if he hasn't fired first you're likely to be arrested. You may be cleared afterwards, but probably still arrested. Even if we're talking about a 30+ massacre, and you finally take the shooter down, you're likely to be detained. It's just the way it works. Pretty much any time you shoot somebody, justified or no, expect to have a run-in with the law...it's just the outcome that varies.
 
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Derius_T

New member
As much as it would kill you to stand there and watch, you kinda have to. You ARE NOT A LEO, or a vigilante, (as they will label you if you shoot the guy) I know you, as a decent law-abiding citezen, want to STOP anyone from being hurt, but you could actually CAUSE people to be hurt by opening fire. I mean I know we are all perfect sniper shots, that could accurately hit multiple asprins thrown in the air, in different directions, in a rainstorm, from the hip...blindfolded....but just what if you miss, and he turns to face the treat, (you) and blows away the poor cashier cowering next to you?

Just things to think about. Now if it were a family member or self in danger, or if he opened fire on people, I would shoot, and consequences be damned.
 
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JuanCarlos

New member
As much as it would kill you to stand there and watch, you kinda have to. You ARE NOT A LEO, or a vigilante, (as they will label you if you shoot the guy) I know you, as a decent law-abiding citezen, want to STOP anyone from being hurt, but you could actually CAUSE people to be hurt by opening fire. I mean I know we are all perfect sniper shots, that could accurately hit multiple asprins thrown in the air, in different directions, in a rainstorm, from the hip...blindfolded....but just what if you miss, and he turns to face the treat, (you) and blows away the poor cashier cowering next to you?
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I usually only run about 50% accuracy under those conditions...but I'm working on it!

Just things to think about. Now if it were a family member or self in danger, or if he opened fire on people, I would shoot, and consequences be damned.
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If he opened fire on people, I can't imagine you'd run into much legal hassle, provided you were carrying legally. But again, I'm no lawyer.
 
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Fremmer

New member
On behalf of the other employees and shoppers inside.....

Let the service rep give him the money so that he can just leave. We'd prefer not to have bullets whizzing around the store while you two have a shootout. We'd prefer not to have the kids in that store see someone shot to death. We'd prefer not to have him take one of us hostage.

Let him take the money and leave. JMHO, I'm no expert.

And start shopping at Target! :D

(get it....Target....ah, nobody understands my humor.)
 
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JuanCarlos

New member
And start shopping at Target!
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Ba-dum crash...

And yeah, there's a reason that nearly every store has a "just give them the money and let them go" policy. While it sucks having somebody point a gun at your employees, and it sucks having him be rewarded for it, it's actually the course of action least likely to lead to anybody actually getting hurt. Get him on camera, hope the cops catch him later...no mopping up blood (including possible bystanders), no patching bulletholes in the store.
 
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Fremmer

New member
Let me clarify my last post, lest I come off as a jerk....

I do respect your courage to want to help others. You have to decide what to do, nobody else can do that. If the guy points the gun at you, or shoots someone, or discharges his weapon, you have to do what you have to do.

Just do it very carefully, that's all. Sorry about the tone of my last post, Cajun.
 
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Redworm

Moderator
And always remember that regardless of the outcome, regardless of the justification and regardless of what others like us believe you may still have to prove to a jury that your shooting was justified.
 
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1064chubbs

New member
About a month ago an off duty LEO pulled out a gun in a road rage incident to scare the other driver and it just happened that the other driver had a ccw permit and a handgun so he shot the OD LEO and was detained for a few hours but was let go. Fortunately the LEO was only injured and not killed in the shooting. Ill see if I can find the article.
 
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12-34hom

New member
Check the criminal code in the state you reside for the use of justifiable use of deadly force.

Where i reside, [Iowa] deadly force can be utilized if you witness a forcible felony in progress. Witnessing a shooting; would be justified at that point [where i live] to apply deadly force. Your state code may differ.

Carrying CCW - it is your responsibility to know the law concering a situation such as this.

Be a good witness - if possible - without endangering your life or others.

12-34hom
 
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Bruxley

New member
I have to agree with JC here. I would add a cell call and being a very good witness. Not just clothes but look for PERSONAL features. Details like ear rings, finger rings, scars, etc.

And watch their eyes if you think they may decide witnesses are unacceptable. The look of a person about to fire is unmistakable and hard to describe past 'cold' or somber with focus. Drop em' as soon as you see that. You have a hell of a time for a while after that but you be alive to bear it.
 
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Pat H

Moderator
whips out a gun and yells at the service desk "give me all the money!"

im standing nearby, i have a ccw and a kel tec pf-9 in my pocket with 7 rounds of powerball +p 9mm.

best thing to do is lay low out of his site but get my pf-9 out of my pocket at the ready?

if i lay low he may kill someone. would i be justified in shooting him before he shoots someone? this is what im not sure of.

i would indeed put 3 quick rounds in his chest if he did start shooting. am i right to shoot him even if he never pointed a gun at me? i would think so.
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Lawfully, in the state where I live, you can simply shoot the person, though it's called using force to stop a violent crime. Any crime in which the perpetrator has a potentially deadly weapon in his control and is threatening its use constitutes a deadly crime in progress. The weapon in his possession doesn't have to be functional, it does not have to be a gun.

Now, whether you should act or not is something only you can decide based on the precise circumstances at the time.

The thing is, you pretty much need to decide now, deciding whether you should act or not when things are going wrong is a bad time for that.

An anectdote: The father (age 70+) of a friend of my brothers was robbed at knife point in Wal-mart between 9 and 10 in the morning. It happened near the rear of the store, almost no customers in the location, and no one noticed. He was not armed. Luckily, he wasn't harmed either.
 
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