Legal magazine modifications?

[Aguila Blanca]

I'm in a state with a 10-round magazine capacity limit. I have discovered that I have everything I need to convert a Para-Ordnance P13.45 or P14.45 from .45 ACP to 9mm ... except a 9mm magazine. I can find plenty of P18.9 magazines, but they're not legal here because of the capacity. To make them legal, I would have to have them shipped to a friendly FFL, modify them permanently to hold no more than 10 rounds, and then the FFL can transfer them to me.

The problem is that I have no idea how to permanently modify standard capacity magazines to 10-rounds. Has anyone encountered instructions on how to make this modification?

 

[jsbethel]

https://www.magazineblocks.com/magento/products/magblock-kits/pistols/para.html?limit=all&mode=list

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I am well aware of Magblocks. They are not permanent, and therefore don't satisfy the legal requirement that so-called high capacity magazines must be "permanently" modified to restrict their capacity to not more than 10 rounds in order to be legal.

 

[HiBC]

You might check with SARCO and Brazos. SARCO scored a lot of Para Ordnance when they shut down, Brazos MIGHT carry some 10 rounders, I don't know that they do,but thats a place I'd look.

 

[44 AMP]

You need to check with your state authorities to see what THEY consider a "permanent" modification.

That's all that matters, what complies with their rules, or doesn't.

A block in the mag body might be, if pinned in place, or welded but only if they say it counts. Get their ruling, THEN get your mags modified to meet their standards. And don't overlook the possibility of needing "10rnd" springs for proper feeding, as well.

Good Luck with your project.

 

[RickB]

Canadians are able to install a pop rivet in the tube, through the #10 witness hole, but don't know if that's considered "permanent" elsewhere?

 

[Aguila Blanca]

You need to check with your state authorities to see what THEY consider a "permanent" modification.

I have submitted an inquiry to the State Police, but I don't expect a definitive answer.

 

[WmMunny]

I would think you should ask your state attorney general's office instead. They are the ones who define what the strike zone is.

The cops just stand behind the plate calling balls and strikes…

 

[Aguila Blanca]

The standard response from the AG's office to any question from a peon is that the AG only provides legal advice to State agencies. My best hope is the State Police, but I don't have high hopes.

 

[HiBC]

Pardon me for asking,but does using a Para frame to get a 10 round 9mm
gun justify the investment in magazines?(It might for you,and you don't need to justify anything to me, just another way of looking at it)

I understand the appeal of a short,fat Warthog but a single stack frame means EZ magazines.

I have a similar problem! STI Trubore Comped 38 Super barrel,Commander length, Early Caspian Double stack frame casting, I have 2 ea frame and barrels.

Colorado is a 15 round state. I can get Meggar magazines that will work in the frame (Large frame Witness) but they are 17 round.

While I want to build a 38 Super Comp... 15 round 10 mm magazines are EZ enough I have 7 . I know where I can probably rent a 9x25 mm Dillon reamer. 9x25 is 10mm necked down. like a 357 Sig Long. I could run the reamer into one of the Trubore barrels and have a trick 9x25, Probably have the slide milled for a mini red dot. If I trim one baffle (leaving 3) of the comp,the Commander length will only be a little longer than a Gov model.

I'm not that hungry for a 9x25 (yet!) but its one way to make the Colorado 15 round limit,An STI TruBore barrel, and a Caspian double stack frame come together.
For ;ight,compact 9mm carry I have my Shield plus. IMO ,given we have the Shield,Shield plus, Glock 43, Sig 365,etc great little 9mm's are EZ

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Pardon me for asking,but does using a Para frame to get a 10 round 9mm
gun justify the investment in magazines?(It might for you,and you don't need to justify anything to me, just another way of looking at it)

I already have the P13.45, and I already have the replacement slide and barrel. All I need to make it work is a couple or three magazines.

 

[WmMunny]

The standard response from the AG's office to any question from a peon is that the AG only provides legal advice to State agencies. My best hope is the State Police, but I don't have high hopes.

Maybe ask your state legislator-- State House/State Senate...or whatever it's called in your state-- to make inquiry for you.

Whatever steps you take, keep good documentation of your good faith efforts to keep it between the lines so if you get charged with a violation you've got a defense...

 

[Jim Watson]

Magblocks are available with epoxy for secure installation.
The question is whether that is "permanent enough" for your rulers.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Jim, the problem with epoxying in a Magblock is that there's then no way to replace the magazine spring. When I asked Magblocks about this, they responded with this (which I received just this morning):

Do you have a need to change out the spring? If not, you can just epoxy the magazine shut, that way you can't remove the block.
We haven't submitted anything to the [___] State Police. It's not something they can approve or deny.

No, of course I don't need to change out the magazine spring. Springs never wear out.

Idiots.

In reality, at least in this state, as far as I have been able to determine it IS the State Police who would determine whether or not a magazine modification is in conformity with the law. I am less than impressed by the Magblocks attitude toward this. They sell their product and basically state on their web site that using their product makes your magazine legal in states with capacity limits -- but then if you ask them what you need to do to ensure compliance with the law, their answer is "We don't know -- that's up to you."

 

[Webleymkv]

Most of the magazines I've seen which were 10-round "compliant" versions of ones which were designed to be higher capacity either had the mag body cut shorter and had longer base plates added to make up the difference in length or had "dimples" put in the sides of the magazine to limit how far down into the mag body the follower could go.

Honestly, we can think up all sorts of ways to temporarily, permanently, or semi-permanently modify the magazines to 10 rounds, but we have no way of knowing what the "proper authorities" in your state will consider "permanent" since they don't seem to be forthcoming with that information themselves.

That being said, there may be another solution that obviates the need to modify anything. Mec-Gar makes 10 round limited .38 Super Magazines. 9mm and .38 Super are close enough in size that the mags might work for either (some listings show the same mag for both calibers).

https://www.galatiinternational.com/para-ordnance-p18-38-super-10-round-limited-blue-mec-gar-magazine.html

Also, Midway lists a Mec-Gar 10 round mag for a Para P18 9mm but it's not currently in stock

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1025242149?pid=236715

 

[Aguila Blanca]

That being said, there may be another solution that obviates the need to modify anything. Mec-Gar makes 10 round limited .38 Super Magazines. 9mm and .38 Super are close enough in size that the mags might work for either (some listings show the same mag for both calibers).

https://www.galatiinternational.com/...-magazine.html

That would do it, although it'll extend below the bottom of the magazine well a bit. (The P13 is a shorter frame than the P14.45/P18.9 frame.) Thanks. I checked Greg Cote, but he didn't have them in stock. Didn't think to check Galati.

 

[44 AMP]

In reality, at least in this state, as far as I have been able to determine it IS the State Police who would determine whether or not a magazine modification is in conformity with the law. I am less than impressed by the Magblocks attitude toward this. They sell their product and basically state on their web site that using their product makes your magazine legal in states with capacity limits -- but then if you ask them what you need to do to ensure compliance with the law, their answer is "We don't know -- that's up to you."

Yes, the reality is that it is up to individual officers to decide if they will arrest you for being in violation of the law. Whether you actually ARE will be determined either by the DA (pressing or not pressing charges) or by the Court if charges are pressed.

Now as to Magblocks attitude, while less than the most helpful they could be, I can understand it, from a business point of view. Some states with restrictions only restrict the number of rounds the mag can accept, and don't have language requireing permanent modification while other's do.

The company simply isn't "wasting" their time/money trying to keep up with all the different possible laws, passng that responsibility on to the customer.

ITs a bit cold, but as long as they stay in business, that's THEIR bottom line.

and yes, it sucks that our govt will not give you a definitive (and legally binding) answer so that you may insure legal compliance.

an off the wall question, the .45 you want to convert is a 1911 pattern gun, isn't it??

If so, did does the conversion need a change to the ejector as well? I think its worth knowing that, but, that's just me,

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Now as to Magblocks attitude, while less than the most helpful they could be, I can understand it, from a business point of view. Some states with restrictions only restrict the number of rounds the mag can accept, and don't have language requireing permanent modification while other's do.

If the Magblocks company were being open and honest about the legality of their product, I wouldn't have any quibble. In my opinion, they are not being honest about it on their web site. The web site implies that all you need is one of their adapters, and you're good to go.

Buried deep in the web site is information about epoxying the adapter in place -- but no information regarding which states do or don't accept this. So I asked. And after the second request, the answer I received was "Do you have a need to change out the spring? If not, you can just epoxy the magazine shut, that way you can't remove the block." That, obviously, completely ignores the reality that magazine springs are a consumable item. It also doesn't provide any indication as to whether or not the epoxy solution is accepted in any of the states that require a permanent modification. There are only about ten or so such states -- it wouldn't be difficult for the company to contact those states and find out definitively whether or not their product is approved. Magazine vendors don't seem to have any problem staying up to speed on which states they can ship standard capacity magazines to.

I may buy a 10-round .40 S&W magazine for a P13 and see if I can tweak the feed lips to work with 9mm.

 

[jetinteriorguy]

I’d guess the Mag locks company leaves the final application up to the individual to avoid legal responsibility for how individuals use their product.

 

[MarkCO]

The standard response from the AG's office to any question from a peon is that the AG only provides legal advice to State agencies. My best hope is the State Police, but I don't have high hopes.

Hmm, not cool. Having been a technical expert on mag ban law challenges, I can tell you that the AG office IS the correct place to get the info under how most State Constitutions are written. In a few, it may be a Sheriff.

In Colorado, the AG has published Technical Guidance letters which, by law, are required to be accessible to the public. They are supposed to be at this link: https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/si... Bill 13-1224 Large Capacity Magazine Ban.pdf

But the error code you see there has been up for months...Ever since the SCOTUS ruling in the Bruen case and the negative media surrounding the USPSA matches at Cameo. There have been several shady things related to the CO AG office in the past few months, and oh yeah, current AG is up for re-election running against a former Marine JAG who is conservative.

None of that solves your problem if the AG office won't answer. As Webleymkv said, we can give you "our" opinions on what would probably be considered a permanent mod. I can tell you what CO says as they lifted portions of my testimony in the AGs office answers to satisfy the questions related to "readily convertible" which essentially gutted the law. But that is just for CO.

You would be hard pressed to find anyone willing to say that two cross pins, welded into the body at the point that prevents the spring from traveling far enough to allow the 11th round would not be permanent. One would need to use an internal plate mount affixed to the base of the spring to keep it flat and perpendicular to baseplate. This would allow maintenance, cleaning and rebuilding as well as proper length in the mag well.