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Leading
- Thread starter Tony Z
- Start date
Kind of an open ended question.
How fast you pushing them? How hard are they? What lube? What powder?
A lot of that will depend on your gun's bore, your bullet, your bullet's lube, your velocity and pressure...............
It's kind of a crap shoot that will involve trial and error IME.
How fast you pushing them? How hard are they? What lube? What powder?
A lot of that will depend on your gun's bore, your bullet, your bullet's lube, your velocity and pressure...............
It's kind of a crap shoot that will involve trial and error IME.
stubbicatt
New member
TonyZ, with cast bullets there are many factors involved in getting them to shoot well, but size is king. It is best to have bullets sized at least .001" over bore diameter, I prefer .002". Only way to determine this is to slug your bore.
After you have determined size, then comes alloy. The faster your velocity, the "harder" you want your alloy, within reason. Though I have shot soft bullets pretty fast. Sometimes a softer alloy will allow you to shoot slightly undersized bullets pretty well.
Last is lube. A good quality bullet lube will make your ammo more accurate, and the lube has a great deal to do with lead accumulation in your bore. I haven't found the lube in commercially cast bullets to be particularly effective, and would recommend replacing it with a softer, greasier, lube.
HTH.
After you have determined size, then comes alloy. The faster your velocity, the "harder" you want your alloy, within reason. Though I have shot soft bullets pretty fast. Sometimes a softer alloy will allow you to shoot slightly undersized bullets pretty well.
Last is lube. A good quality bullet lube will make your ammo more accurate, and the lube has a great deal to do with lead accumulation in your bore. I haven't found the lube in commercially cast bullets to be particularly effective, and would recommend replacing it with a softer, greasier, lube.
HTH.
Stubbs: in my quest for subsonic .357 rounds, here is where I'm at! I have put together a cartridge that meets all criteria being fairly quiet, subsonic and very accurate, out of my Henry Big Boy steel.
The round is built around 146 lead round nose bullets I had on hand for a .38 S & W (not .38 Special). These rounds are .361 diameter and would not feed as first swaged. I ran the bullets through my Lyman sizer, using a .358 die and a .30 RN head. The size come out at .3585, with Lyman lube. These are loaded over 3.8 grains of Bullseye and are a very fun load.
My OP is one of curiosity, looking for guidance from some here that shoot lots of cast bullets. To do so, will take lots of experimentation of swaged vs. unswayed bullets, different velocities, etc., and I was hoping someone may have already done such a study!
The round is built around 146 lead round nose bullets I had on hand for a .38 S & W (not .38 Special). These rounds are .361 diameter and would not feed as first swaged. I ran the bullets through my Lyman sizer, using a .358 die and a .30 RN head. The size come out at .3585, with Lyman lube. These are loaded over 3.8 grains of Bullseye and are a very fun load.
My OP is one of curiosity, looking for guidance from some here that shoot lots of cast bullets. To do so, will take lots of experimentation of swaged vs. unswayed bullets, different velocities, etc., and I was hoping someone may have already done such a study!
Hartcreeek: care to put forth a couple of theories? The bullets are extra-hard, being swaged twice to hit .3585, and do have Lyman lube on them. I'm also shooting a couple of hot .357 magnum jacketed bullet rounds through the rifle to help remove leading (seems to me, I read to do that decades ago!).
I'm not using gas checks, just sub-sonic & low velocities.
I'm not using gas checks, just sub-sonic & low velocities.
Kinda confused with terminology being used. Cast are just that; melted lead poured into a mold. Swaged is soft lead squeezed into a die. Double swaged? The term most used for pressing a bullet through a die to change diameter (often combined with lubing) is "sizing".
Hard cast is a fairly new term used for cast bullets from a commercial caster (I never heard the term before 7 years ago) for new lead bullet shooters that think harder is better for cast bullets. Now nearly every cast bullet gets called "hard cast" no matter how hard it is. I have driven plain wheel weight alloy, plain based, air cooled bullets to well over 1400 fps in a revolver with no leading, BHN of mebbe 11, but they fit my gun.
Bore diameter is the smaller of the bore dimensions (like 30 caliber is ususally .308") where groove diameter is used to determining cast bullet diameter (like 30 caliber is very often 310"+).
Normally cast bullets are sized to match the cylinder throat diameter of revolvers, and .002" over groove diameter for semi-autos and rifles. To shoot lead bullets good measurements are needed of the gun and the bullets. But there is a lot more that comes into play too. For more info. I'd suggest Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook (3rd Edition is much better than the 4th, if you can find one) and "From Ingot to Target" by Fryxell "http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm
Hard cast is a fairly new term used for cast bullets from a commercial caster (I never heard the term before 7 years ago) for new lead bullet shooters that think harder is better for cast bullets. Now nearly every cast bullet gets called "hard cast" no matter how hard it is. I have driven plain wheel weight alloy, plain based, air cooled bullets to well over 1400 fps in a revolver with no leading, BHN of mebbe 11, but they fit my gun.
Bore diameter is the smaller of the bore dimensions (like 30 caliber is ususally .308") where groove diameter is used to determining cast bullet diameter (like 30 caliber is very often 310"+).
Normally cast bullets are sized to match the cylinder throat diameter of revolvers, and .002" over groove diameter for semi-autos and rifles. To shoot lead bullets good measurements are needed of the gun and the bullets. But there is a lot more that comes into play too. For more info. I'd suggest Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook (3rd Edition is much better than the 4th, if you can find one) and "From Ingot to Target" by Fryxell "http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm
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"...what lead bullets lead more..." None. Leading is caused by trying to drive a cast bullet too fast.
Swaged is pure lead made literally from a wire.
A .38 S & W will always be too big. Swaging one to .357/8" will make the bullet longer than an 'around 146' .357" bullet. Won't be much longer. Won't be unsafe either.
Suggest you buy a copy of Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook. $29.98 directly from Lyman. http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/publications/cast-bullet4.php
Swaged is pure lead made literally from a wire.
A .38 S & W will always be too big. Swaging one to .357/8" will make the bullet longer than an 'around 146' .357" bullet. Won't be much longer. Won't be unsafe either.
Suggest you buy a copy of Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook. $29.98 directly from Lyman. http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/publications/cast-bullet4.php
I have two loads for my Winchester Trapper in .44mag.
One load uses Unique and the other uses 2400.
I use the same brass, same bullet (240 grain Hornady swaged lead .430" dia) and same primers.
I use the same dies and Lee Factory Crimp.
I load both to about the exact same velocity - ~ 1100 fps.
One - the Unique - leads so badly the bullets hit the target sideways @ 10 feet.
The other - the 2400 - shoots clean and like a dream.
That sort of rules out velocity as being the source of leading since they are both loaded to nearly the same.
It sort of rules out hardness also since the same bullet is used for both loads.
Same bullets using the same dry lube.
Same diameter bullets in the same bore.
The only thing that is different is - the powder and the burn rate.
I've read a ton over the years where people have put forth the idea that it's the powder burning the base of the bullet as being the source of leading.
Gas checks separate the lead from the powder and are quite effective at eliminating leading.
Using a slow (cooler) burning powder also places less flame at the base of the bullet.
I'm 100% convinced that velocity, hardness and cast/swaged have little to nothing to do with leading.
One load uses Unique and the other uses 2400.
I use the same brass, same bullet (240 grain Hornady swaged lead .430" dia) and same primers.
I use the same dies and Lee Factory Crimp.
I load both to about the exact same velocity - ~ 1100 fps.
One - the Unique - leads so badly the bullets hit the target sideways @ 10 feet.
The other - the 2400 - shoots clean and like a dream.
That sort of rules out velocity as being the source of leading since they are both loaded to nearly the same.
It sort of rules out hardness also since the same bullet is used for both loads.
Same bullets using the same dry lube.
Same diameter bullets in the same bore.
The only thing that is different is - the powder and the burn rate.
I've read a ton over the years where people have put forth the idea that it's the powder burning the base of the bullet as being the source of leading.
Gas checks separate the lead from the powder and are quite effective at eliminating leading.
Using a slow (cooler) burning powder also places less flame at the base of the bullet.
I'm 100% convinced that velocity, hardness and cast/swaged have little to nothing to do with leading.
Not necessarily. The key is the hardness. You can't drive a hard bullet to slow, or a soft bullet to fast. Ie. the bullet needs to be soft enough so that pressure behind it can cause it to expand and plug the bore. Leading is normally caused by hot gases going 'around' the bullet and depositing lead in the bore. When you you try to shoot soft lead to fast, you can get 'skidding' down the barrel as the lands try to spin the bullet. That is why we we talk about about matching bullet hardness to pressure. The bullet must be allowed to obturate (expand). That said, there are other factors that cause leading in a revolver. If the throats are tight is a cause. The throats need to be at least .001 over the bore size. Ruger .45 Colt revolvers are notorious for tight throats. My Ruger .45 Colt revolvers for example have bores of .451. The throats have been reamed to a consistent .4525 as they were all tight. The bullets are all .452 to fit the throats and then 'squeezed' down to .451 by the bore when shot. Another cause of leading is bore constrictions. If they are minor and the bullet hardness is right, leading 'might' not be a problem. If constriction is not minor the bullet is 'sized' down and then gases are allowed to blow by the bullet causing leading. Firelapping is a way to eliminate constrictions. Then there is throat to bore alignment. If slightly off, there can be leading. Setting the forcing cone to 11 degrees can help here. I suppose bore roughness could be a cause too. I haven't run into that one though., but firelapping can help 'smooth' a rough surface too. Just never want to over do it.Leading is caused by trying to drive a cast bullet too fast.
I have shot loads from 600fps to 1333fps with no leading. Gas checks just aren't needed. At least in my guns. All I shoot is lead in .32, .357, .44 Mag/.44 Spec, and .45 Colt / .45 ACP.