Lead exposure from case cleaner

[Jeryray]

When I dump my Dillon case cleaner into the drum that separates the walnut from the brass there is dust around the area.

I was told that dust contains lead and this should be done outside.

I ordered a tumbler that I can carry outside easily and separate the brass outside.

I have had elevated lead levels and thought it was from the range.

Anyone hear of this?

 

[David R]

I switched to wet tumbling. Just watch that black water go down the drain!
David

 

[Unclenick]

Jayray,

We had a member post a few years ago that a friend of his tested for lead contamination professionally and checked out the members facilities. He found no excess lead around the loading equipment or even at his bullet casting bench. The one place he did find it was all around the vibratory tumbler. So, yes, the dust from a vibratory tumbler has lead salts in it from primer residue, and yes it can be significant. For awhile, I took to taking the tumbler outside and running it with its lid off to clear most of the dust, and then put on disposable nitrile gloves and carefully wiped down the outside with paper towels and Windex and disposed of the paper towels carefully. But I finally decided I didn't like the lead dust in the air and landing on my lawn and maybe getting into the vegetable garden on the paws of squirrels and other wildlife that go in and out of it, and moved to we tumbling.

Wet tumbling is slower and more bother, but the citric acid (whether purchased as such or as Lemishine) used by most folks in this process chelates the lead, binding it in a molecule that greatly limits its toxicity, so it's a good idea from that standpoint.

If you want to keep using the vibratory tumbler rather than invest in a new cleaning system, you can get a Lee Universal Decapping/Depriming Die and remove the primers and then submerge your cases in a 5% citric acid solution for a few minutes to attack the primer residue and chelate the lead, then rinse them and let them dry before tumbling them.

 

[mikld]

I'm not convinced the "lead poisoning scare" for reloading, casting, shooting has much validity. I believe the lead from primers in the tumbler media dust is infinitesimal and we probably get more lead from other sources. I shot indoors, cast my own bullets. used a wobbler case cleaner, reloaded all for over 30 years in LA. I had annual physicals by my employer, City of Los Angeles, and while my blood/lead levels were a bit high, they were way under "concern" levels. I moved out of LA and the lead levels in my blood dropped dramatically. My lead exposure was not from reloading, casting, or shooting, they were from LA air...

Use common sense, don't do deep breathing exercises over your tumbler, don't chew on your cast bullets, don't wash with the tumbler water and you'll be fine...

 

[Unclenick]

It's not infinitesimal. That's what the other member's professionally done measurements showed. But the exposure danger usually isn't great for adults because we know to wash our hands before eating and don't crawl around on all fours and don't still have a developing nervous system. For kids and other pets, it can be a hazard. For the OP, since he already has high lead levels, it could present an insult. In his shoes, I would be wearing a respirator around the vibratory tumbler.

Incidentally, his contamination, IIRC, was on the floor around the tumbler. That suggests putting down newspaper for a run and tossing it afterward may be a useful step.

Like you, I shot a lot of gallery matches at one point ('70s abd '80s) and often in poorly ventilated ranges. A lead test I had done in the mid '80s showed I was right up at the top end of the safe range. IIRC, Not long afterward, mandatory ventilation requirements began to affect indoor ranges. The acceptable blood lead level has been lowered since then, of course, though I don't seem to have high lead now. But my shooting has been almost all outdoors since the end of the '80s.

 

[David R]

My lead was up to 50 in 2006. I stopped shooting and casting. In a few years it went back down to satisfactory levels. NO , there are no fumes from casting that can harm you. BUT. Touching all the stuff and touching food, cigarettes, or drink can get the lead into your body. In 2006 I had no idea about the tumbler that always ran in my garage.

I am more careful, wash my hands a lot more when done loading or shooting. I buy coated bullets. I went to wet tumbeling. I find it to be EASIER and quicker than the silly vibrator. I can tumble 500 or more 45s, then sort them AFTER they have been cleaned. They come out cleaner inside and outside. I rinse and use a liquid car wax so they slide nice and easy in the press.

Lead poison is real, my joints ached and my pay attention was not working near as well as usual. I even stayed off the motorcycle for a year.

I THINK different people react differently. Some absorb it easier than others and it has different effects on each person.

I have it checked twice a year. Its higher in the spring than fall. Its hanging around 20. My doctor wrote "CHRONIC" on my chart a few years ago. I shoot more now than I did before 2006. Levels are lower because I am more careful. I shoot 2 bullseye matches each week. Each match is 2 courses of 30 rounds. All center fire this year. I practice one day a week. This makes it about a minimum of 200 rounds a week.

My wife does the same. I maintain all guns and keep ammo supplied for her, me, and my daughter.

David

 

[Unclenick]

That's interesting that you find it easier. I had in mind the extra effort of separating the pins and handling the liquid when I said it wasn't as easy. But that probably has to do with how you separate your brass from the media. At some point long before wet tumbling became common, I got one of the Lyman bowls with a media spout at the bottom that separates the media for you. But it does raise dust. Definitely not for unventilated indoor use.

 

[David R]

I use the rotating separater in a bucket. The blue one. Works great. My wife owns a car wash, so I use her soap and wax.

My dehydrator limits the size of my batches. If I had 2 dehydrators, I could do 1,000 45s at a time.

I do not deprime before tumbling. I don't want to mess with the dirty brass. Only rifle brass gets deprimed. I love it that it cleans the primer pockets.

David

 

[starnbar]

lead exposure

I got a small 2 cubic yard plastic barreled cement mixer which I have used for almost 20 years it has a plastic lid which is fitted to the barrel and has worked fine for me as far as lead contamination my levels are a little above normal but that could also be from years of cleaning parts in leaded gasoline when i used to race 1/4 and 1/8 mile racing

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Anyone hear of this?

Absolutely. I once tumbled in my basement. Then I moved it to the garage, and now I only tumble and sort outdoors in good weather.

I'm not convinced the "lead poisoning scare" for reloading, casting, shooting has much validity. I believe the lead from primers in the tumbler media dust is infinitesimal and we probably get more lead from other sources. I shot indoors, cast my own bullets. used a wobbler case cleaner, reloaded all for over 30 years in LA. I had annual physicals by my employer, City of Los Angeles, and while my blood/lead levels were a bit high, they were way under "concern" levels. I moved out of LA and the lead levels in my blood dropped dramatically. My lead exposure was not from reloading, casting, or shooting, they were from LA air...

My experience was just the opposite. About ten years ago I had elevated blood lead levels that were above the "concern" level. I also shoot at an indoor range, and reload. I severely curtailed my shooting activities for a couple of years, modified my case cleaning practices, and my blood lead levels quickly went back down to normal. I can't say whether the elevated levels were more due to the indoor shooting or the reloading, but my guess is that it was a combination.

 

[labnoti]

The problem with lead is the effects aren't noticed until it's too late and then they are often not even associated with the lead exposure but with plain "fate." Noticing high blood lead levels -- and there is no level that is considered acceptable -- does not concern many people because it's just a number. It might be decades from now that they get a diagnosis that has a more concerning name, but they will at best skeptically make an association to lead. In the meantime, they'll continue to deny a problem.

Avoid shooting indoors, especially with a busy range. Especially avoid working at an indoor range.

Airborne residue from primers is probably the most dangerous. But this residue settles on surfaces and can be picked up. Indoor ranges are again the worst because the wind blows none of the residue away nor does it mix into the dirt or sand but accumulates on hard surfaces, and while ventilation should be pulling the gases out, the heavy solids settle on those surfaces where they stay ready to be picked up. Don't scrounge for brass without gloves -- better yet, use a tool like those wire basket things. Don't sweep the range with a broom (you'll see squeegees for a reason).

For reloading, use lead-free primers. I buy Fiocchi. Tell Federal we want their Catalyst lead free primers as a component. They don't seem to get it yet. Let's not wait for the green-cloaked hoplophobes to force our choice by banning lead. Choose lead free for your own health and so that lead bans are meaningless and accomplish nothing and therefore unnecessary.

Use wet-tumbling or ultrasonic. I tumble wet. I have not tried ultrasonic but suspect the machine that would meet my needs would be too costly. Keep your dry tumbler to use on cases that have already been cleaned in the wet tumbler.

Reload with jacketed hollowpoints or plated bullets. Although I think bare cast and coated bullets or lead-base FMJ result in less lead toxicity than lead-styphnate primers, I don't think they offer anything that makes the lead exposure worth however little it is. The cast bullets are not cheaper unless you cast them yourself and that's more lead exposure risk that doesn't seem like it's worth it to save a few pennies, especially when factoring in all the time you'll spend casting. For those who enjoy a casting hobby, learn to do it safely. For those who are just looking to pinch pennies, forget it.

Hunt with lead-free bullets like Barnes TTSX and shoot lead-free shot on game birds you'll eat. I just shoot steel because it's more than enough for the little birds. If you're shooting big birds like turkey, you won't be doing it so much you can't afford to shoot bismuth or tungsten.

I even carry Barnes TAC-XP because first of all, their performance is excellent, but also it eliminates exposed lead hollowpoints in my pocket on an everyday basis. Also ditch house keys and any other key for EDC. The brass alloy they use is full of lead to make machining the key easier. I put combo door sets on my house and all my cars have pushbutton starters and the RFID or IR fobs.

I reload with lead-free primers. I shoot fully plated or all copper bullets. I wet tumble my own brass. I never have to scrounge because the cases are all in moon clips or they come out of a rifle or shotgun that doesn't throw them. I shoot outdoors, and I usually shoot in sand pits and other similar spots (not shooting ranges) where there is little or no accumulation of contamination.

At this point it probably seems like I'm hypochondriacal, but I actually have a motivation of laziness for most of these things. I never scrounge around for brass and cleaning everything is a breeze. The brass is easier to clean. The reloading room is easier to clean. The gun is easier to clean. The game is easier to clean. My clothes are easier to clean. And I have no worries about contaminating my kids. So while some people might think I'm excessively "worried," the opposite is true. I'm not worried at all. I have nothing to worry about. At my annual in December, my blood lead level was undetectable.

 

[Unclenick]

If you have kids, I think Labnoti's approach is rational and very well described and appropriate. Absent the presence of developing neurological systems, I am a bit less concerned about small exposures than he is. I don't use lead-free primers at this time because of the 2011 DOD WSTIAC publication showing how irregular their ignition is, and that has a measurable effect on rifle accuracy. Apparently some delays are randomly great enough that they cannot keep full auto weapons running smoothly. (Summary article here.)

I am, however, hopeful Federal makes the Catalyst primers available. I am assuming they don't have that delay issue, which is attributable to the dinol sensitizer used by other brands, and that Federal wouldn't sell a primer that couldn't produce good accuracy, nor would they load it for the military lead-free ammunition. Indeed, while I am sure early production will be dedicated to loaded ammunition, which is much more profitable than reloading component sales, it has been long enough that it is starting to concern me that these primers haven't appeared for handloading. The concern is they may require some kind of special process or handling not available to a handloader. I don't know, but I hope that's not the case.

 

[labnoti]

Federal's Catalyst lead-free primers are based on bismuth-oxide rather than DDNP.

As for Fiocchi, the current iteration of their products is about two or three years old. Fiocchi had other generations of lead free primer quite a few years before that.

I do not have data to indicate a similar comparison to lead-styphnate for accuracy. I do know that Italian forces use the Fiocchi ZP (lead-free) and they do not have any problems with full auto. They have been accepted for NATO stockpiles. If I was shooting benchrest, they'd have to be proven for that, but I think for most people the volume of shooting happens with handgun cartridges.

Fiocchi claims a 15-year shelf life, which may be less than lead styphnate, but more than long enough for any of us to shoot with. Bear in mind that is the claimed shelf life which is almost certainly very conservative. They will probably last a lot longer. If someone desires ammo for long-term storage, use lead-styphnate, but there's no reason to shoot those.

As for reliability in ignition, I have had one failure in about 5000 with Fiocchi and it was probably because I damaged the anvil with a double-feed in the hand priming tool. I have no concerns about reliability at all, especially for ammunition that I intend to shoot for training and practice. If someone wanted more proven ammo for carry, I suggest factory ammo. But for reloads, days at the range, practice, training classes, etc., I can't see a reason not to love the lead-free.

I have not shot Catalyst, but if Federal made them available as a component I would try them immediately and unless there was a serious problem, I'd most likely adopt them. For me, that would mean buying about 20,000 and 5 to 10 thousand more per year. I understand that for Vista that doesn't mean anything, but I would hope that most reloaders do the same for all the good reasons there are.

 

[T. O'Heir]

"...I have had elevated lead levels..." From what? Work?
It takes a great deal of exposure to have elevated lead levels. It's rarely from just reloading. Or anything to do with firearms.
Used to shoot indoor bullseye with a guy who was an Ontario Hydro(Power Company) engineer. He cast bullets in his closed and poorly ventilated garage and was exposed at work. He got "leaded" and had to quit shooting for 6 months.
Tumbling cases doesn't have enough lead by itself.

 

[labnoti]

A quote from the article linked in post #12:

"An Air Force study showed that transitioning to training ammunition with lead-free bullets and primers can reduce instructor exposure to lead by 70% in indoor ranges and 41% in outdoor ranges."

 

[Unclenick]

Unfortunately, Mr. O'Heir is in the habit of stating his assumptions as facts without researching current information on the subject.

The 15-year shelf life sure sounds like dinol. It attracts moisture, and even the best sealants have finite water vapor transmission rates. Storing them in freezer bags with a large enough quantity of desiccant to capture any moisture that permeates the bag until you are ready to use them may help. You just don't want to store loaded ammo in a desiccant. Norma points out that water molecules are small enough to get past bullets and primers and over about a year, a loaded cartridge equalizes with the RH of the air around it. In the case of desiccated air, it can be dry enough that it raises the powder burn rate as much as 12% (depending what RH storage you started with—12% is going from 80% RH conditions to near 0% RH).

Here's a little more recent study (Oct 2014; click on the upper right dark blue box to download the PDF file). It's the one I actually had in mind when I linked to the other. When you get to page nine, the 80 ms (several times your gun's lock time) delays are pretty dismaying. A shooter with any sort of imperfect follow-through would get group spread from that. It's not even good enough for service rifle match shooting, much less benchrest. Many shooters won't notice it clearly, but a muzzle can move a lot in that much time. A little like learning to shoot a flintlock, it might actually help learn better technique, but people need to be aware they are doing that.

Bismuth oxide is not the sensitizer in Catalyst primers. Nitrocellulose is, made impact-sensitive by the addition of aluminum. (Actually, nitrocellulose is always somewhat impact-sensitive, as is any high explosive, but not enough to make it dangerous to use in propellants.) The bismuth trioxide adds some oxygen to the reaction when it gets hot, and recombines with it while it streaks out into the powder. If you look at the Federal image here, you'll notice a lot of fireball coming out of the Catalyst primer. That makes me think the issue with general availability might be that load manual data would need to be redeveloped with these primers to avoid excessive pressure from faster ignition, but I want to be careful to say I don't know that is a fact; it is speculation. That impression is reinforced by their claim powders burn more cleanly with Catalyst primers. Clean burning is associated generally with higher pressures and temperature or a less negative oxygen balance than powders normally have. If the latter is being achieved because the Catalyst contributes a little excess oxygen to the powder burn, then you can expect that would increase pressure by speeding up initial ignition a bit.

 

[gwpercle]

Your media shouldn't be so dry as to be dusty... add some kind of liquid case polisher or liquid media additive made and formulated for brass media polishing / cleaners.

There are several liquid additives on the market , some are polishers , some are cleaners, some are for corn cob media and some are for Walnut...use one of these .

Don't start dumping in liquid car wax...it will quickly load up , stop working and you will have to replace it... Use the right additive .
Midway sells a treated walnut case tumbling media that has just the right amounts of polish in it... It Is Not Dusty...good stuff !

Probably not a good idea to breath in any kind of dust...even sawdust , house dust none of it can do your lungs any good . Treat the media to hold down the dust .
Gary

 

[Unclenick]

That's what adding a clothes dryer sheet to the tumbler is supposed to help with, too.

 

[Jeryray]

Wow, lots of real interesting facts hear. My level was 15, now at 5.

I will use media separater outside.
I use berrys plated bullets
Federal match primers.

 

[jetinteriorguy]

I deprime everything with a Lee universal depriming die before tumbling. I use dryer sheets every time and occasionally add either mineral spirits or Barkeepers Friend. Mineral spirits if it’s getting dusty and Barkeepers Friend for especially dirty stuff. It just takes an occasional shake of Barkeepers Friend, a little goes a long way.