lead/coating buildup problems, 9mm

[Shadow9mm]

hey, I started to venture into lead bullets in 9mm and am running into an issue. I seem to have either leading or coating residue in the barrel. This is out of a 5th gen G19, less than 50rnds fired during this session.

I previously loaded 1000 with N340 and have fired about 200 of them with no problems. other than a bit more fouling than normal, no crazy buildup like this.

I am switching over to HP38, as N340 is no longer available in my area.

I had some prior testing done with this powder and bullet but had not finalized on a load. I did some testing to see what would work

G19 5th gen, marksman barrel
Brazos 125g hi-tek coated .3579 over sized) cast lead BHN of about 13
Loaded to 1.145 (to pass plunk test)
Winchester small rifle primers (out of small pistol)
Did some testing yesterday. not sure if it is an issue with a specific powder charge, or the bullets in general. fired 7 rounds of each over the chrono for the following averages.
7-4.4 1086fps
7-4.5 1096fps
7-4.6 1126fps
7-4.7 1142fps
7-4.8 1156fps

After testing I went to clean my barrel and noticed some heavy fouling. I only fired these, plus 6 of my other loads to ensure the chrono was working properly, less than 50rnds.

Interestingly, the leading does not start until about 1in down the barrel.

Could this be an issue with this powder as HP38 is several powders faster than N340? the N340 velocities were about 1090 so in the same ball park.

Not sure when the leading started. I supposed at this point all I can do it clean it. Load some more at 4.4 and see if the leading still occurs.

Update: While cleaning out the fouling, it does not seem to be lead. I think it is the hi-tek coating. It is soft and plasticky, reminds me of wad fouling from shotguns.

 

[RC20]

Glocks are noted for it and there are blow up issues related to it. I think its the polygonal construction and the chamber design.

Need to get rid of it and hmmm.

I reloaded lead bullets but was careful to get ones that were hardened (its not just hard its a combo of hardness and other aspects) - I went with Penn but others out there know what mix works as well for pistol use.

I shot some in an HK (also polygon) with no issues.

As I recall a rating of BHN 14 on hardness but the caster needed to understand the other metallurgy involved.

Also you don't want to automatically go to oversized. Penn at one time had data on what the tendency was. I think Sig was standard, some were undersized a bit etc.

But it should be checked.

 

[RC20]

Some good background here

https://www.pennbullets.com/9mm/9mm-caliber.html

https://www.pennbullets.com/unique.html

 

[Shadow9mm]

It is the 5th gen glock with the marksman barrel, lead is supposed to be ok in this barrel, or so I have been told, and based on my research. It is polgonal with rifling.

Also, I have not slugged my barrel, but micrometers shot 0.3555. After much reading I decided on the .357s as i should be no less than 0.001 over bore dimeter and a .356 would only be 0.0005 larger.

 

[jetav8r]

With coated Hy-Tek bullets the bell must be slightly larger than normal. If not the case mouth will scrape some of the coating off and leading will occur. Also too much crimp will also scrape off the coating. Pull several bullets and check to see if the coating has scrape marks and lead is exposed. If so, then increase the bell. If you still have scrape marks on pulled bullets, then try less crimp. After a session with Hy-Tek bullets shoot about 5 or 6 FMJ rounds.

I shoot about 10,000 rounds of Bayou Bullets with no issues. At first I had a similar problem that was caused by not enough bell. The coating is very hard to remove. After removing most of the leading/coating I ran a few FMJ rounds through the gun and the barrel looked new again.

Good Luck

 

[ciwsguy]

Interesting. I had a similar issue with a S&W 9EZ

I didn’t take photos of it and I don’t have a chronograph. I was shooting 135 grain polymer coated Montana Bullet Works hand loads over moderate power pistol load. 9EZ is Ballard rifling. It took a lot of solvent and scrubbing to remove it. Found the removal trick was to let it solvent soak for 1/2 day then start the scrub.

Some of the bullets keyholed into the target so I think my problem was more than a heavy charge behind lead bullets. May have had a heavy crimp and burrs around the case mouth scraping the coating during bullet seat.

Ciwsguy

 

[Don P]

If slower powder is not a option try down loading powder in your rounds which will slow your FPS which should help reduce the leading. My 9 mm's are barely doing 815 FPS, 45 apc are at 610 FPS.

 

[Shadow9mm]

With coated Hy-Tek bullets the bell must be slightly larger than normal. If not the case mouth will scrape some of the coating off and leading will occur. Also too much crimp will also scrape off the coating. Pull several bullets and check to see if the coating has scrape marks and lead is exposed. If so, then increase the bell. If you still have scrape marks on pulled bullets, then try less crimp. After a session with Hy-Tek bullets shoot about 5 or 6 FMJ rounds.

I shoot about 10,000 rounds of Bayou Bullets with no issues. At first I had a similar problem that was caused by not enough bell. The coating is very hard to remove. After removing most of the leading/coating I ran a few FMJ rounds through the gun and the barrel looked new again.

Good Luck

I think the bullets are sized after being coated. they all measure exactly. 0.0357. However I am using a lyman M-type expander that slightly opens the case and flares the mouth. I made sure I was not scraping the coating.

As far as crimp, I am doing just enough for it remove the flare and for it to drop into my loaded cartridge gauge. but I am using the lee carbide crimp die which does a light resizing as it goes through to smooth out any bumps in the casing.

Like I said, light fouling with my other n340 loads, but nothing as severe as this.

 

[Shadow9mm]

I didn’t take photos of it and I don’t have a chronograph. I was shooting 135 grain polymer coated Montana Bullet Works hand loads over moderate power pistol load. 9EZ is Ballard rifling. It took a lot of solvent and scrubbing to remove it. Found the removal trick was to let it solvent soak for 1/2 day then start the scrub.

Some of the bullets keyholed into the target so I think my problem was more than a heavy charge behind lead bullets. May have had a heavy crimp and burrs around the case mouth scraping the coating during bullet seat.

Ciwsguy

Yeah, it has been a pain to clean. I am using slip 2000 carbon and lead remover. I let it soak for about 30min, then scrubbed with a copper brush, got about 1/2 of it out. Been soaking another hour or so, time to scrub again and see where it is at.

 

[Shadow9mm]

If slower powder is not a option try down loading powder in your rounds which will slow your FPS which should help reduce the leading. My 9 mm's are barely doing 815 FPS, 45 apc are at 610 FPS.

I plan on try a batch of 50 at the 4.4g 1085fps. I'm not sure where the leading started. It might have been fine at the lower speeds but not liked the higher speeds. If I get similar leading I will start backing down the load.

 

[hounddawg]

delete

 

[Shadow9mm]

One of the pro shooters on the USPSA circuit told my wife, who was/is the designated pistol competitor in our house, to just run a magazine of FMJ's through after a lead shooting session. Said it would get 98% of the lead out and the 2% left deep in the grooves and pits did not make a darn. Since I was the designated gun cleaner we tried it and he was right.

I may try that next range session. Checked with my buddy. Same brand bullets, same coating, in 38spl at about 950fps (snubbie) no buildup. He was shooting uniqie, which is also a touch slower powder.

Gonna go back down in loads, and see if it still has the buildup. Then work up until the buildup starts. Gotta get something figured out, I have about 5000 of them, need to make them work.

 

[std7mag]

Slow your fps down.
If you wanna run over 1,000 fps with lead, use a gas check.

 

[Shadow9mm]

Slow your fps down.
If you wanna run over 1,000 fps with lead, use a gas check.

If that is the case looks like I will be switching back to plated/jacketed after I get through these 5k... cost is about the same, for gas checked lead.

 

[RC20]

The only time I saw leading that bad was lo many years ago my brother bought some lead bullets (we were new to reloading and using the Lee Whack a Mole thing) and was annoyed that they had grease on them.

I am going to clean this off. Me: I would not. Him: Why. Me: Its even, its on all of them, I don't know anything about lead bullets but the would not do it if they did not have a reason (we had shot FMJ up to that point)

He, being Mr. Neat and tidy, sneaking behind my back, cleans them off and when we shot them his barrel turned into a musket. I finally got it scraped out with a screw driver (there is an older tech thing with mesh screen patches that was offered for cleaning that out many years back that might still be out there)

What I do know is a good lead bullet these days will go 1500 FPS no problem and NO gas check needed.

I don't see any signs of the coating, just lead.

I have not shot coated lead bullets, what I have is greased per past norm and the BN of 14 or so and I pushed them up around 1200 fps.

Powder may be stripping off the coating, chemical interaction etc.

Also, when you plug a barrel up like that it get dangerous pressure wise.

I would NOT run FMJ thorough it to try to clean it. At best it will pack it down and worst you might get a nasty surprise (that is what blows up Glocks though its the Glock Barrel combo that is the initial issue)

If you shoot those any more after you get it clean, I would shoot it a couple rounds and take it down and check.,

 

[Shadow9mm]

The only time I saw leading that bad was lo many years ago my brother bought some lead bullets (we were new to reloading and using the Lee Whack a Mole thing) and was annoyed that they had grease on them.

I am going to clean this off. Me: I would not. Him: Why. Me: Its even, its on all of them, I don't know anything about lead bullets but the would not do it if they did not have a reason (we had shot FMJ up to that point)

He, being Mr. Neat and tidy, sneaking behind my back, cleans them off and when we shot them his barrel turned into a musket. I finally got it scraped out with a screw driver (there is an older tech thing with mesh screen patches that was offered for cleaning that out many years back that might still be out there)

What I do know is a good lead bullet these days will go 1500 FPS no problem and NO gas check needed.

I don't see any signs of the coating, just lead.

I have not shot coated lead bullets, what I have is greased per past norm and the BN of 14 or so and I pushed them up around 1200 fps.

Powder may be stripping off the coating, chemical interaction etc.

Also, when you plug a barrel up like that it get dangerous pressure wise.

I would NOT run FMJ thorough it to try to clean it. At best it will pack it down and worst you might get a nasty surprise (that is what blows up Glocks though its the Glock Barrel combo that is the initial issue)

If you shoot those any more after you get it clean, I would shoot it a couple rounds and take it down and check.,

Im planning on loading up 50 at 4.0g, so should be near 1000fps, give or take a little bit, planning on shooting 5, then checking the barrel, and repeat for the box of 50 or until i see a buildup. could be a powder interaction, but my money is on velocity right now.

 

[ciwsguy]

Yeah, it has been a pain to clean. I am using slip 2000 carbon and lead remover. I let it soak for about 30min, then scrubbed with a copper brush, got about 1/2 of it out. Been soaking another hour or so, time to scrub again and see where it is at.

I find using the stiff nylon bore brushes to be more effective than brass brushes.
I also found that wrapping a solvent soaked cleaning patch around the brush bristles to be more effective than using a patch on a cleaning jag.

Also the polymer coated bullets are supposed to hold up to subsonic speeds, sometimes higher. I have had polymer coated bullet loading success de-burring the case mouth prior to case expansion to help prevent stripping the polymer, including 357 magnum, 9mm and 44 magnum. I choose the published loads that don’t produce extreme velocities. It’s still an experiment in progress. Guess I’ll need to get a magnetospeed chrono.

 

[RC20]

Im planning on loading up 50 at 4.0g, so should be near 1000fps, give or take a little bit, planning on shooting 5, then checking the barrel, and repeat for the box of 50 or until i see a buildup. could be a powder interaction, but my money is on velocity right now.

Plan sounds good. Those are some seriously low quality bullets if they did that at your velocity though. The BRN is supposedly right and I have shot them at 1200 fps no issue in two 9mm (not coated but the same BRN)

You can shoot upwards of 2000 fps with that BRN if its actually done right (not in a 9mm of course)

PM me, I would be willing to mail you 10 of the Penn to try and using the same powder.
They are 120 gr Truncated type.

 

[44 AMP]

If you wanna run over 1,000 fps with lead, use a gas check.

Or, better yet, use a bullet with an alloy & hardness for the desired velocity. Non-gas checked bullets of the right size and alloy will run well over 1,000fps without leading

Rifles shooting cast bullets can go up to about 2,000fps, and up to 2200fps with gas checks.

Personally, I don't care for coated bullets. You can't really tell what's under the coating.

 

[dahermit]

Or, better yet, use a bullet with an alloy & hardness for the desired velocity. Non-gas checked bullets of the right size and alloy will run well over 1,000fps without leading

Rifles shooting cast bullets can go up to about 2,000fps, and up to 2200fps with gas checks.

Personally, I don't care for coated bullets. You can't really tell what's under the coating.

Many of us do our own coating of bullets (Powder Coating), so we do know what is underneath.