Law and Order SVU vs. Justified

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Glenn E. Meyer

New member
I had to laugh. We like to watch both shows. However, I think the gun handling on L and O is horrible. About 5 times, I've seen them in about 4 shows have a hostage scenario.

1. Elliot is held hostage. Tells Olivia to take the easy shot. She talks and talks and finally shoots the bad guy in the shoulder - so they can talk to him.

2. A little kid is held hostage. BG shoots Olivia and instead of saving the kid, Elliot goes to wail over her and lets the BG get away to kill the kid, IIRC.

3. A crazed ex is going to stab and set his ex-girl on fire. Olivia shoots him with plastic bullets she deliberately brought to the scene to 'save him'.

4. Kid with nut holding a knife to his throat. Ice-T is about two feet away with the gun pointed at the nut's nose. Talk, and talk - take the shot already.

5. Psycho stalker grabs crusading woman. Holds knife to her throat and licks face. Elliot is two feet away with his Glock. We have to wait to Olivia creeps up with a taser so they can capture him to ask about other crimes. Hostage is yelling: SHOOT HIM!

Haha!

Justified:

Marshal Givens and partern get to the scene where a guy is holding a pregnant woman with a gun to her belly. Says he will shoot the baby. Givens says: Did you ever here of the apricot - a place in the brain that if shot drops you.

BG - says: You that good?

At that point, Givens points to his partner who shoots him in the apricot!

Like that show!!

If I am a hostage, please send the Marshals!
 
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MLeake

New member
I've watched the various Law and Order variants over the years, starting with the first season of the original series. I never did care for Criminal Intent, both because I disliked the format (we see the crime at the beginning so we know who did what), and because D'Onofrio's character had too many supernaturally savant moments - plus, while I like D'Onofrio in other roles, in that one he was just plain annoying.

Of the L&O franchises, I've liked SVU the best. However, in all the L&O franchises, they not only handle weapons poorly, but they are pretty overtly anti-gun. They've also been anti-following bad guys to report positions (guy can't get good cell response, so follows BG, and gets blamed when BG has fatal accident, that kind of thing), and pretty much anti-anything but call 911 and hope for the best.

On the original series, McCoy evolved into a hypocritical jerk. He'd grandstand over PC issues, and go after maximum sentences with questionable motivation; yet he'd play loose with the facts when it suited him - and the producers expect us to see him as a hero.

My basic point is, Dick Wolf makes his politics and leanings pretty plain by the way he sets up his scenarios and series, and the man is very anti-gun and very fond of a nanny state government, based on what he produces.

OTOH, Justified is based on an Elmore Leonard character. Leonard is an executive producer on the series. He apparently takes a pretty active role (in one interview, Timothy Olyphant said Leonard has been getting on him to wear the cowboy hat less often). That's a good thing. Leonard's books feature complex characters, interesting plot twists, and a lot of Murphy's Law. I've read a couple dozen of Leonard's books and stories.

Plus, the producers of Justified cast a star who seems very comfortable with firearms handling (Deadwood, HitMan). I'd bet Olyphant does some shooting in his spare time.

I also like the former Ranger sniper character. He's not overly big nor imposing, and actually reminds me of a couple snipers I know.

So, while I like SVU, I've given up on the other L&O series, and I dislike the weapons handling on SVU even if I do like the chemistry between the cast.

I own season one of Justified, and will buy season two when it becomes available.

And that about sums it up.
 
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Sefner

New member
I had to watch The Wire for a criminology class. It was hit or miss, some funny moments:

One character racks the slide on a double barrel shotgun. Yet this same character routinely talks about guns in a very educated manner and is even seen cleaning his collection before a heist (with Hoppes 9, brushes, but with a steel rod and from the muzzle).

This same character is involved in a hilarious caliber debate. He confronts another hitman carrying a PPK and proceeds to say "With that caliber? I wouldn't even go down" and then "with this 45, even if I miss, I still hit". :rolleyes:

Half the cops lack trigger discipline, an odd amount of gangsters have it.

Nearly every ganger Mexican/Israeli carries (they carry in their waistband with no round chambered). In the heat of the standoff they always take the time (and their opponent the patience and kindness) to chamber a round.

Shotguns can spread across a victim's entire stomach from punching distance.

etc.

I can't stand Law and Order.
 
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armoredman

New member
If you go to Hollywierd for reality you will always be sorely disappointed. I have seen snippets of the Law and Order series, as my wife watches them all the time, and they are entertaining, like the Walker, Texas Ranger show was, and equally unrealistic. Haven't seen a single episode of Justified, but I heard it was good.
 
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Glenn Dee

New member
First off... Justified, and the Law&Order programs are two different kind of entertainment.

While Justified is fun, L & O is closer to reality.

Yep NYC is anti gun's in civilian hands. Thats reality.
Yep most cops are NOT good shots. Thats reality.
Yes Cops (and most peple) will put their friends safety ahead of a strangers.

Having lived that life I favor the origonal law n order series over the others. (although the L/A version is not bad.)

IMO... L&O special victims is TV pap. IMO they have no connection to any reality that I have known. NYPD has no lateral entry. Munch could not transfer from baltimore.

L&O criminal intent is again IMO a soap opra. The Lt would have been retired after a stroke. DiNofrio character would have been forced into a disability pension because he's nuts.

The origonal L&O is pretty close to reality. The uniforms, equipment, firearms, jargon, scenario's, case handling is pretty much on the money with one exception. One detective carried a 2 1/2 " model 19 as his duty gun. That would NOT!!! happen.

NYPD guns for the period were

Service gun:

Glock 19
Sig 220 (i think)
S&W 6906 (i think)
S&W model 10/64 4" or 3" round or squair butt (.38)
Ruger police service six (.38)
Colt Official police
Colt metropolitan MkIII

Off duty or P/C gun:

S&W model 36 2 or 3" round or squair butt.
Colt detective special
Kahr K9
Glock compact 9mm
S&W model 10 2 or 3 inch.
S&W 640 (.38)
 
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Lawyer Daggit

New member
Sadly, I think you would find gun handling amongst real live cops is probably worse than their screen counterparts.

Unless a LEO is a keen shooter, the amount of practice and firearms training received in most departments is not adequate to produce an adequate shot under pressure, let alone a competent one.
 
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Glenn E. Meyer

New member
I wasn't really complaining about realism as much as commenting on the fictional gun handling styles. Elliot talks tough but is a total wuss. Gets knocked on his can quite a bit. Olivia can't fight. She once was attacked by a prison guard while she was 'undercover' and had a cuff on one hand. She could have beaten his brains in with that but just flapped around.

I do like Muldar on X-files - he had a hostage situation and was disarmed. Pulled a bug and put it to the BG's head. Said he would count to 10 and then shot the guy at 3!

So this may not be too gun related if we wander into realism but I just had to comment on two shows back to back almost in a week.
 
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Mike Irwin

Staff
No, if you're a hostage, please send the AMC staff who write Justified.

They can quickly write you out of that scenario, hopefully keeping you alive.

Come on, Glenn, you know that TV has no link to any sort of reality as is known in this universe!
 
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Glenn E. Meyer

New member
What - TV isn't real - how about all those politicians who appear? Maybe the news is just a show put on by aliens! :confused:

I've met Rob Pincus from SWAT TV - is he a robot or something?
 
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SPEMack618

New member
Personally, why I love Justified, Marshall Givens being the type of Federal LEO I want to be when I grow up:D, I nearly shot my tasty adult beverage out my nose while watching last weeks episode.

The Lady Friend, who was watching it intermittedly while working on her homework, looks up for a moment and goes:

"You know what this show is? It is pure Glock adult entertainment sang term." And went back to her studies.
 
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bikerbill

New member
The missus and I were complaining last night about how bad SVU has gotten; it's very true as others have said that the show's managers make their feelings very plain about gun ownership and use ... Olivia has become such a downer, always with that "dingos ate my baby and I'm dying of malaria" sadsack look on her face ... I well remember that "take the shot" show; wife and I were both yelling at the screen, "shoot, you ninny!!!" She's always trying to save some scumbag from the results of his own actions ... Enjoying Justified, that new Chicago show, BlueBloods ... L&Es haver all jumped the shark and run their course ...
 
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wally626

New member
I really should give up on Miami CSI, the plots are getting really convoluted. Last night for the big shootout, two BG are spraying an apartment with machine guns, good guys dive behind couches, I did not count shots put probably 500 per reload. At least they showed throw holes in the top cushions of the couch they were behind, somehow the BGs never thought to lower their aim just a touch. Horatio of course sneaks out the back door, comes in the front and shoots one BG in the back and the other as he turns. In the middle of the shootout Horatio is actually holding a phone conversation?? I will grant that the standard TV troupe is that the more shots being taken the less likely that anyone is going to be hit, but this was really carried to the extreme.
 
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Ben Towe

New member
+1 on NCIS

Gibbs is awesome. And Cote de Pablo (Ziva) is my future wife, she just doesn't know it yet.:D

I'll give props to Ms. Hargitay as well, she is a definite hottie, even if the whole show is pretty silly at times.

NCIS is about as close to real as I see on TV, probably because they actually use NCIS agents as advisors. Even then, I see mistakes sometimes. I still like it though... Now I have to close with some Gibbs quotes:

"I'm a man of convictions, I get 'em and I got 'em."

"You've never done this before. I have. I've killed men and women in combat, in the line, and in life... and some of them still haunt me. But I never lost a night's sleep over your father. You want to know what it's like to be the hand of justice? Then pull the damn trigger yourself. Go on. DO IT!":cool:
 
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