Ladies Pistol Project 3

[JohnKSa]

Informative writeup in the May 2019 American Rifleman Magazine.

68 female shooters, ranging in age from 25 to 76, and with similarly wide-ranging levels of experience took place in the project.

They fired 26, currently available, self-defense oriented firearms, chambered in .380ACP, 9mm, and 357Mag/.38Sp, and rated them for various parameters such as ergonomics, recoil manageability, magazine loading difficulty, ease of operation of controls, etc.

The S&W M&P380 Shield EZ topped the list with a nearly perfect score (96.6%), runner up was the Glock 19G5, followed by the SIG P238. SIG also took 6th and 10th with the P365 and the SP2022, respectively. Walther managed an 8th place finish with its CCP M2 and the Ruger Security-9 managed to squeak into the top 10 with a 9th place finish. The remainder of the top 10 guns were Glocks, with the 42, 17G4, and 43 taking 4th, 5th and 7th, in that order.

What's interesting is that although 4 revolvers were tested, the top finisher came in only 17th. The top wheelgun finisher was the 3" GP100, also the largest revolver in the test. The smallest revolver tested, a S&W Bodyguard in .38Spl came in dead last in the test, scoring 26th out of 26.

We talk a lot about what we believe constitutes ease of use when it comes to firearms, and the "common wisdom" says revolvers top the list in that respect. Real world testing doesn't seem to bear that out.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Thanks for the head up. If you go to http://blog.krtraining.com/ and look for the Girls with a Gun Conference, there's similar info.

Here's a link to the American Rifleman article: https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2019/4/8/right-for-you-ladies-pistol-project-3-results/

A quote for guys who post : What gun should I get for my ....

“Most women generally want to learn more about firearms and don’t want to rely on their husbands. It helps they are surrounded by other women.”

 

[stinkeypete]

The top 4 are really no surprise to me, they are mid-size pistols, most in .380 and how can you really say much bad about the Glock 19?

It seems the trend is for pistols that fit the hand and controllable recoil.
I learned from the advertising as I got to that article that there are now FOUR Performance Center M&P Shield .380 EZs that are ported and milled out, flat triggers and improved sights, and a dandy little cleaning kit and an msrp of $510. Now when will they make me a long slide version?

The choice of pistols was curious to me. Where is my inexpensive but favorite Bersa Thunder? There the Walther CCP M2 is, around here that’s fairly uncommon.

It leads me to wonder how a nice Walther P22 would have scored, or a buckmark with a dot sight in it.

The purpose of the event was to encourage women to shoot for self defense yet it seems the scoring was based on enjoyable sport shooting. That’s fine with me... the more people at the range, the better! I’m retired and do other stuff on the weekends!

 

[74A95]

Another thing I noticed is that there were a lot of pistols NOT on the list. Obviously, there are dozens of pistols and you can't test them all. Still, the 'results' are limited to the guns tested.

 

[JohnKSa]

The choice of pistols was curious to me. Where is my inexpensive but favorite Bersa Thunder? There the Walther CCP M2 is, around here that’s fairly uncommon.

Another thing I noticed is that there were a lot of pistols NOT on the list.

Bizarre how that works, isn't it. If you can't test all of them, you have to choose the ones to test and then the ones you don't choose don't get tested.

Yes, it's almost certain (and I suspect we all have a pretty good idea why this is true) that in any real-world testing, there will be many, many more models that don't get tested than models that do get tested.

According to the article, here's how the guns were chosen:

"Handguns selected for the LPP3 came from trying 2018's new models, while retaining some popular models from previous LPPs, and adding others Worthy and Jackson <the two persons, Casey Jackson and Donna Worthy, who set up the test> had deemed popular among their female clientele."​

I know that the following paragraph is going to sound pretty smart alec, but that's really not how I intend it.

I am positive that the gun community would welcome the results of other similar tests if they could be run with different models included. If there are models you believe should have been included, get together a decent selection (say 2 dozen firearms that fit the general category) and a good cross section of the female population (say 50-100 shooters) and run your own test. YES, I understand that this is not a small undertaking and it may well be outside the capability of some, but with some effort it seems within the realm of possibility for a motivated person who either has, or is willing to make some connections and organize the test.

 

[Lohman446]

Revolvers advantages tend to rely on the idea that they are easier to operate, less prone to failure, and can generally chamber more powerful cartridges

Easier is suspect. They are likely less familiar to most people in today’s culture and absent a hand strength issue the advantage of not racking a slide is over thought. My wife insists a semi auto is easier to operate

Prone to failure is relative. Outside of induced failures most modern semis are boringly reliable

More powerful is suspect. Yes the rally big boys like the 460 have no common rival but even the beloved 357 is challenged by the 10MM and I defy anyone to show me a 357 the size of a G29 that is as easy to handle

Face it. The revolver is you “grand daddy’s gun”. Yes I’m transitioning back to one (injuries to me left arm / hand make slide manipulation under stress suspect) but for most people they are obsolete and more expensive than entry level pistols from the same manufacturer

 

[JERRYS.]

I keep revolvers stashed around the house because my wife and daughter do not care any more to go to the range. the revolver is either loaded and ready to fire or it is not. for them, to pick up, aim/point and pull the trigger without worry about a safety or a limp wrist failure or anything else is key for them.

 

[USNRet93]

I keep revolvers stashed around the house because my wife and daughter do not care any more to go to the range. the revolver is either loaded and ready to fire or it is not. for them, to pick up, aim/point and pull the trigger without worry about a safety or a limp wrist failure or anything else is key for them.

Agree..My daughter-in-law, walking to her car after dark, is going to CCW..and she 'opted' for a M380 revolver vs a Glock 42 because of the simplicity.
She is not a frequent shooter, doesn't go to the range..has enough experience to know the revolver but not a recreational shooter.

 

[TailGator]

The top 4 are really no surprise to me, they are mid-size pistols, most in .380 and how can you really say much bad about the Glock 19?

The Sig P238 was in there - very small pistol. It impresses me that it scored as well as it did, among some considerably larger pistols.

I will admit to a bit of bias. It was my wife's first choice as a concealed carry pistol. I later got one for a pocket pistol, as well.

 

[Cosmodragoon]

As far as revolvers, the selection pool was a little strange. It looks like the LCR, SP101, normal J-frames, and K-frames were all absent but hey, they had a Chiappa Rhino. Of the ladies in my life who carry, all but one carry an absent revolver. The odd lady out carries a Shield.

It's worth noting that my wife prefers revolvers for aesthetic and sentimental reasons. They are prettier. They make her happy. They undoubtedly strike a chord with various eras of fiction and history she enjoys in books and on the screen. Whatever the case, she enjoys shooting them and she shoots them well.

 

[rock185]

Interesting. I guess all the women in my extended family are atypical. They all preferred some version of the little S&W 5-shot revolver......

 

[gb_in_ga]

FWIW, Wife Unit has RA, and thus has problems racking slides and loading magazines. That pretty much limits her to revolvers.

 

[Cosmodragoon]

The anecdotal evidence keeps rolling in... Lots of ladies prefer small revolvers that weren't included. How could that be?

This is a recurring problem with "studies", whether it be something benign like this gun test or the kinds of purposefully slanted academic "studies" used to push an agenda. We've always got to look at the particulars. Luckily, this one isn't behind a pay wall. =P

 

[Doc TH]

women & guns

My wife's rationale for revolvers:
no problems with racking slide;
no need to practice malfunction drills;
if there's a failure to fire, just pull trigger again;
rounds in chamber are visible, thus easy to tell if loaded;
can leave loaded for eons, no fear re, magazine spring probs (if they exist);
no safety levers/decocking levers to fool with - just point and pull trigger;
likes shooting 38 spcl std or +P more than 9mm or 45.

 

[JohnKSa]

This is the third test of its kind. The results of previous tests may provide some useful information for those interested in how the guns in the previous tests were ranked since each LPP tested a different selection of handguns.

In addition, since one of the factors in gun selection for the LPP3 was how similar guns had performed in the previous testing, the previous results may provide some insight as to why certain guns were/weren't included in the LPP3.

A selection of revolvers were tested along with the rest of the firearms in the LPP1--the one that scored the highest was the largest one tested. The SIG P238 was ranked #1 in the LPP1 with the Walther CCP coming in second.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/8/21/the-american-rifleman-ladies-pistol-project/

The LPP2 did not test any revolvers. The Glock 19 finished first in the LPP2 with the SIG P238 coming in second.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/ar...es-pistol-project-ii-concealed-carry-pistols/

FWIW, Wife Unit has RA, and thus has problems racking slides and loading magazines. That pretty much limits her to revolvers.

Mine has a similar medical issue with similar symptoms. She can't pull the DA trigger on a typical revolver unless she uses both index fingers, and after testing a number of revolvers, large and small, she absolutely refuses to shoot any more of them because the recoil causes her too much pain.

She tested a lot of revolvers because everywhere she went, she asked for advice (she knew nothing about handguns) and was advised by multiple gun shop clerks to buy a revolver. Rather than simply accepting the recommendations, she rented a wide variety of handguns (including the recommended revolvers) at rental ranges in the area.

She chose a locked breech, all steel, .380ACP pistol after testing a lot of different guns and has been very happy with it. I had absolutely no input into her choice because she did the testing and selected the gun before we met.

The DA revolver trigger pull issue is one I've run into with other shooters who have hand-strength issues. The ones who really don't have the hand strength to run a full-sized 9mm or or a locked-breech .380 also often don't have the hand strength to pull a DA revolver trigger properly. In fact, I've run into more than one shooter who can't pull a DA revolver trigger properly but can run the slide on at least some autopistols suitable for self-defense--although sometimes it takes teaching them a better technique for operating the slide than they have used in the past.

As far as loading magazines goes, the UPLULA makes the task much easier.

 

[Carmady]

The smallest revolver tested, a S&W Bodyguard in .38Spl came in dead last in the test, scoring 26th out of 26.

So size does matter.

 

[straightshooterjake]

The DA revolver trigger pull issue is one I've run into with other shooters who have hand-strength issues. The ones who really don't have the hand strength to run a full-sized 9mm or or a locked-breech .380 also often don't have the hand strength to pull a DA revolver trigger properly.

@JohnKSa, great post. You made a bunch of important points, but I want to emphasize the section above. It has always been bad advice to recommend double action revolvers for people with hand issues. Sometimes revolvers do work, but more often, the double action trigger turns out to be a big issue.

The best advice is that all hand and wrist issues are different, so a person with limitations needs to try different things, under the guidance of an instructor or coach, to find what works. Unfortunately, this approach is beyond the resources and skills of most gun store clerks.

For many people, a semi-auto where the slide is easy to rack is the best choice. The S&W Shield EZ and the Sig 238 are two reasonable examples.

 

[jackstrawIII]

Thanks for posting this. It totally lines up with my own (somewhat limited) experience teaching my wife and her friends to shoot. They ALL hate revolvers.

So, I cringe every time I'm at the gun store and overhear a clerk telling a new female (or male) shooter that they recommend starting with a snub nose revolver as their first gun. Nobody (male/female/space alien) shoots those well without a TON of practice.

Incidentally, many female shooters I know seem to really like my Walther P99. I think the light trigger pull has something to do with it.

 

[Jim Watson]

One problem is, most women don't get into the Gun Culture and are not inclined to put in the time to make a good selection and learn to manage it.

Even so, most women still take instruction well. I did run into a friend's new wife recently who did not absorb the basics as well as I have come to expect.

I have seen several women with both index fingers on DA triggers.
I also know of a couple of women who figured out that it was a lot easier to make the shot if the revolver hammer were cocked. This led them to ADs in moments of stress, fortunately with no injury.

 

[Lohman446]

One problem is, most women don't get into the Gun Culture and are not inclined to put in the time to make a good selection and learn to manage it.

Even so, most women still take instruction well. I did run into a friend's new wife recently who did not absorb the basics as well as I have come to expect.

I have seen several women with both index fingers on DA triggers.
I also know of a couple of women who figured out that it was a lot easier to make the shot if the revolver hammer were cocked. This led them to ADs in moments of stress, fortunately with no injury.

None of those issues are gender specific. The "old time" gun culture is getting smaller and smaller.