l1a1

fubsy

New member
In my spare time here (precious little), Ive stumbled accross a rifle its a L1a1 with thumbhole stock....they want $500.00 for it so Ive put a deposit on it and will most likely pick it up.........what are they worth and are they any account?...I know precious little about this style of rifle, although I seem to remember there are some of this type that should be avoided...can anyone clear up my confusion...tks ,,,fubsy.
 

STEVE M

New member
I don't know about the price (sounds cheap) but the rifle design itself was a NATO (except US) standard for many years. It is the same basic rifle as the FN FAL just some deminsional changes for British manufacture ( I think). Whish I had one.
 

fubsy

New member
steve,
thks for the info and that is the price, Ive talked to a friend earlier who said that the rifle had been evalusated by some gun mag recently and was consideered a good buy......heck for 500 bucks if it works as i hope its a steal in todays market...Ill know by the end of the month....later fubsy.
 

Destructo6

New member
It's highly unlikely that it is a true Commonwealth (Britain, Australia, New Zealand) L1A1 as they are select-fire. Most likely, it is a L1A1 parts kit assembled on either a US-made or, better yet, a foreign-made (under liscence by FN, often Imbel in Brazil) receiver. I have a similar parts kit, assembled on a DSA receiver, and love it.

The Commonwealth, inch-pattern, rifles have some pretty cool features and one that is not so cool:

On the cool hand, we have a folding charging handle, a mag well that can accept both inch and metric magazines (wide forward cut), sand cuts on the bolt carrier, and a really wide magazine release.

On the not-so-cool hand we have a bolt hold open device that will not hold the bolt open after the last round. The limey's had some crazy idea that this would allow too much dirt into the weapon's mechanisms in the few moments it would be open. This can be remedied pretty easy by swapping the inch-pattern hold open device for the metric variety (by removing a single screw/pivotpin that retains the mag release and hold open device).

Stock up on FAL 20rnd mags, they go for as little as $7 each!

[This message has been edited by Destructo6 (edited July 31, 1999).]
 

fubsy

New member
destructo,
now thats what i needed to hear, is their any other problems?.....and Im sure its a parts rifle as well, but as long as it shoots everytime and is accurate what more could i want........and you did say $7.00 mags--was that a misprint?, can you point me in the right direction to pick up a few of those?........Im aware of some original fn types but the guy wants $50 a pop I believe, I dont know what their worth either.....i normally would have stayed with the m1a and been estatic, but the price if this works is wonderful........fubsy.
 

Destructo6

New member
Yeah, DSA http://www.dsarms.com/ had used Metric FAL magazines for $7.00 advertised for the last year, although it's not currently on their web site nor in their SGN ad. They don't look great, but they function well. Bought some spare mag springs, just in case.

CDNN (800) 588-9500 has them for $15.

A&D Glogal, Inc (847) 837-8840 or adglobal@aol.com advertises "Austrian Mags, used," for $7.00 and a quantity discount.

Classic Arms (704)821-6878 advertises surplus FAL mags at $12.95

One-Eyed Jack (818) 879-8026 advertises Belgian for $18.00

Some dealers will charge more for the aluminium alloy magazines, calling them, "lightweight" (which they are, but not by much) or even, "rare" (which they are not). Other dealers will charge more for the steel versions. I have discovered that the aluminium mags will swell somewhat when fully loaded, making them a little more difficult to insert into the mag well. The steel mags will not swell a bit. Some of the steel mags have holes in the back that allow you to see, roughly, how many rounds are in it.

You can tell the metric magazines from the inch-pattern magazines by the hook (that engages the cut in the front of the mag well) at the upper-front of the magazine. The metric hook is punched right out of the mag body. The inch-pattern hook is a separate piece that is brazed/welded in place and is significantly wider than the metric version.

The FAL adjustable gas regulator is pretty cool. You can adjust it down until it starts to malfunction and then turn it back up a notch or two for about the lightest recoil with that load. You can also rotate the gas plug and disconnect the gas system entirely, requiring you to cycle the action manually (why you'd want to do this, other than firing rifle grenades or other odd loads, I don't know).

The FAL has some other neat little features like the rear of the gas piston is female threaded to mate with the pull-through-cord type cleaning kit available through DSA. The guts are super simple and require no tools to remove the hammer, trigger, and sear.

If I'm not mistaken, it also owes some of its design to your friend and mine, John Browning. Yes, happiness is a warm FAL.
 

fal308

Staff Alumnus
Everything Destructo told you is correct. I might add that between the inch and metric versions, whole upper and lower assemblies may be swapped (inch upper & metric lower) but not parts within the assemblies (inch pistolgrip on metric lower, etc). Even the buttstocks are different. An easy way to tell if a weapon is metric or inch pattern is to look at the interface between receiver and buttstock; if it is wholly vertical it is a metric unit, if there is a horizontal hump at the bottom, it is an inch receiver. There are several other ways to tell also, but this is the most obvious. Quite a few Century Arms weapons were assembled with metric lowers and inch uppers. Don't know if that is still the case though.
The Israelis also have a version of the FAL series that is slightly different, but it is mainly in the barrel where the differences are.
Whatever you do, stay away from the Ishapore weapons. The Indians did not want to pay FN royalties so they reverse engineered the weapon from trials samples. These weapons are sort of metric - inch -whatever. Parts don't interchange easily between Ishaport weapons and anything else.
I just received my third one as a gift for rebuilding an indoor range and I love these weapons.
If you have any other questions or you wish me to expound upon anything stated here, feel free to ask or e-mail.
 

fubsy

New member
Alright here is what I found......
on the right side,
l1a1 sporter cal 308
by imbel-brazil
imported by cal st alb vt
with a 6 digit number on the mag well...
on the trigger group there is a different number althoug it is alpha/numeric 11 digits long....
the op rod also had a different number and that was 960-2302 b62...
when I looked in the mag well the bolt had an entirely different number and it was 8 alpha/numeric digits with a * at the end....
the trigger had this number on the left side
b59 and the mag looked new and it had l2a1 9600017 with a washed out insignia and the numbers 1959(hard to tell), and reversed r and a correct r back to back....does any of this help?, tell me what this is and is it worth the money possibly?....tks fubsy.
 

Destructo6

New member
The lower reciever's numbers won't match the upper's because the original upper was cut up and thrown away at some point in time. This is true of all semiautmatic only FALs. The Imbel receiver that replaced the original was made under liscence from FN and should be about as good as it gets here in the USA.

Some of those numbers are simply part numbers. My Austrian kit had numbers on practically everything, but they were usually only a single digit, maybe two. I had a few parts that looked like they came from a different rifle (way more wear), but everything works well.

This is a pretty good FAL site: http://www.fnfal.com/falfiles/index.html

It's, "The FAL Files."

[This message has been edited by Destructo6 (edited July 31, 1999).]
 

fal308

Staff Alumnus
The marking on the receiver is actually cai. That is the importer marking (Century Arms Intl). St Albans Vermont is the location of the importer. Imbel is the actual producer of the receiver, the serial numbered part. On the left side of the receiver above the trigger housing should be a series of numbers preceeded by two letters; UE, UB etc. This is the manufacturer of the lower receiver. My understanding is the E = Enfield, B = BSA, etc.
Like Destructo6 said, most of the numbers are part numbers and yes $500 is a very good price. Around my part of the USA these are going for just under $700.
Another site worth visiting is Gunplumbers Notebook at www.arden.net/modernarms/gunplumber.htm. Gavin's page has some info also at www.impactgun.com/masterke and there is information on the G series FAL at www.crl.com/~skimmel/fal/.
If you really want to get into the history of the FAL series, find a copy of Blake Stevens book The FAL Rifle. This is the definitive text on the FAL series. The only thing missing in this book is headspacing dimensions, though it does delve into them in a roundabout way. BTW FALs headspace differently than most weapons, there is a replaceable locking shoulder that is installed into the receiver. It is not an inexpensive book though. Perhaps you could borrow one for a while. I've lent mine out on several occasions.
 

fubsy

New member
fal308,
that explains the markings and its a ub serial number on the lower and a ue on the bolt.....Ill see if i can locate that book and tks for the url's.........I went back yesterday to verify what I remembered and to pick up the markings and the folks had written the rifle up for a $450 instead of the $500 it was marked at, Ive been a long time customer so he just knocked $50 off, mighty nice of him total cost should be around $485.....I also went to a another gun store to see what they had on one in their rack and its $700 plus and has the same marking's---now I frequent this store more than any other and its prices are usually higher than any other around--but the rifle they had in the rack, one of the guys working there told me its not that good of a rife as it jammed on every other round(apparently since this one is used they tried it out, one of the guys was going to buy it), they told me the gun was an inch pattern and that parts wouldnt fit it. Now with your and destructo's help ive a better handle on this rifle.....the versatility seems great and it could be the guy s there are not experts on this rifle type and didnt understand the features....who knows but the price is right and Im betting I can make it work just fine......
....have ya'll put a scope on one?....
....tks guys for clearing all this up, it seems Ive a lot of homework to do....fubsy.
 

Patrick Seeber

New member
Hello Fubsy,

I would say that you are getting a good deal. I just laid out the $$$ to start my Kit yesterday. Morgan Blanchard of High Plains Drifter here in Reno Nv is getting me hooked up. www.hpdrifter.com and bmorgan@gbis.com are good ways to get ahold of him. I paid a little more than $500 and I still need to get the US parts kit and a muzzle brake for this project. Then it will be sent out to Arizona Response Systems -www.arizonaresponsesystems.com - to get the brake welded and possibly headspaced... I'm not sure... Hey, Morgan has a grip! Why should I worry?

The point of my post is... I think you got a HECK of a deal! Please let us/me know how it shoots.

I am also looking to put a scope on mine. I will let you know if I turn up any neat systems.

HTH
 

fubsy

New member
Patrick,
tks for the encouragement, and I will let ya'll know but it will take till the middle of aug for me to get the rifle out of the store.........and shortly there after, Ill be reporting back on it....and by all means do let me know about a scope mount, I saw several possible s on the url that destructo left on on e of the above posts.....big site........so Ive a lot more researching to do....later fubsy..
 

jimc

New member
fusby
your's is a part's gun for sure however it is metric not inch pattern as imbel was the fn contract out of brazil. i know i had one myself. by the way if you really want to have fun before you have a muzzle brake put on , take a look at getting an austrian stg58 part's kit, it will go onto your reciever easily. the thing i found about the l1a1 is that the gas piston to gas tube tolerences are loose owing to the fact most of the l1a1 g/pistons are worn. this can be rectified by plating the gas piston. also as with any fn once you set the gas setting keep in mind that if you then use a different mfg. ammo you will probably have to adj. the gas setting again. have fun shooting your new toy
 

fal308

Staff Alumnus
Most mounts for the FAL series use a dustcover based mount. I've been corresponding with someone in Finland that has built a side mount out of dural! Sounds like a winner as it wouldn't lose it's zero very easily, unlike the dustcover mounts. They state that the dural works better than steel. I believe that is because it has just enough flex so that it won't crack but is stiff enough to hold a zero.
 

fal308

Staff Alumnus
Forgot to answer your question. I have a B-Square mount on one of mine but I'm not overly satisfied with it. I'll leave it on though as it's better than nothing. Would like to try out this system I wrote about in the previous post though.
 

fubsy

New member
Jimc,
tks for the heads up on the gas cylinder....I think the problem in the store is that the folks there although well intentioned dont fully understand this rifle and i usually sift through opinions and make my own.............I dont know what a stg58 kit is, but I did see one on a url the other night and will go back and chk it out..
also why do I need to install a muzzle break?, Im not into cosmetics and dont know if all that really helps the accuracy or shootability ..tks.

Fal308,
When I ws looking for mounts for the fifle i noticed that all of the mounts seemed to be the dust cover types are they just not rigid enuf?(remember ive no experience with this style of rifle, although im gearing up to put this rifle through its paces........ive also no idea what that material is that the guy in europe is making them from....

Ive noticed that tapco has fal/stg parts kits for179.99 complete less receiver are these parts any account? I also located some us made receivers for less than 500$ are they any good?
what are those fn/fal-l1a1 recoil buffer things.........will the rifle function without one?---are they similar in practice to the ones used for the 1911?...I occasionaly carry one 1911 and I do not use a shock buff in it as ive seen them jam a pistol....is the same thing possible with this fn/fal l1a1 style of rifle? I take it I cant take that butt ugly rear stock off and go to the seperate pistol grip and rear stock?...I did see one that has a more complete pistol grip with a piece either molded or attached to the bottom of the grip---Ill wait and see i guess,,,,

Ya'll have been great and thanks very much for the info and responses.......im getting excited about this rifle, its been a long time since i thought I got a deal on a gun...sheessh.....mater of fact last time was a brno commercial grade mauser action wonderfully tapered barrel in 30-06 with aboslutely gorgeous deep bluing......like a dummy I sold it.........lol.....fubsy.
 

Destructo6

New member
I have a STG-58 parts kit assembled on a DSA receiver with the required number of US-made parts to make it a-okay. The STG was Austria's own FAL version. My particular parts kit seems to have been a fairly early one with some parts being made by FN and others made by Steyr. The STG has a pretty cool bipid that folds up into the handguards and a grenade launching, wire cutting, bayonet mounting flash suppressor that has to be swapped out for an ATF approved version. Otherwise, it's a standard metric FAL.

If you're looking at building a FAL from a parts kit, Pacific Armament Corp advertises (in SGN) metric type3 receivers made by Imbel in Brazil for $300. Otherwise, DSA makes a good type1 or type3 for about $400.

DSA also makes a pretty heavy dustcover-type scope mount, but it isn't cheap at $100. It claims 4 internal locking plates to hold the zero. Considering that the method used to mount the SUIT sight on military FALs was little more than the stamped dustcover with a few holes drilled in it, any of these would be an improvement.
 

fal308

Staff Alumnus
One of mine is also built up from an Imbel receiver and an StG58 parts kit. The kit are good in that you get all sorts of spare parts , if nothing else. I've also ordered spare parts from Samco, though the service sucked. They had a deal on their website for a bag of spare parts for $50. I got well over my money's worth. All in all, I'd get a kit as it gets you the cool StG58 parts and a lot of spares.

The dust cover mount is the factory-style mounting for optical sights. The DSA seems to be the best of the ones I've handled, but my B-Square is about half the price of the R4 (South African) version. That mount I spokke of is Dural - an aluminum derivative. I've also heard it called duraluminum.

The buffer is one of those situations where people either swear by it or at it. I've got one in one of my FALs but haven't shot it much since installation. You've got to remember that these weapons were designed to be abused, and they were (over 90 countries adopted the FAL series as their main battle rifle). So they were originally designed without the buffer so more than likely it isn't required, but the metal in them is more than likely 30 - 40 years old and without any sort of stress analysis it's unlikely to be able to tell the condition of the steel.
I believe that the stock you're referring to is the Dragunov stock. Yes, it is legal to replace the thumbhole stock with one of these Dragunov stocks, as technically they are thumbhole stocks also. Been thinking of getting one myself, but that's $80 I could spend on something else. Check it for length of pull and comb first before you buy. As I recall it could have fit me somewhat better.

As to USA receivers, some are good and some are bad. Entrerprise has a poor reputation generally for their receivers, Hesse Arms has a somewhat spotty reputation on quality control while DSA seems to have a superior reputation, though their pricing reflects it. The imported Imbel seems to be the best buy for the money nowadays.
 

fubsy

New member
fal308,
yep its the draganouv stock....and Im trying to get things lined up, if the thumb hole works ok,,,,Ill leave it alone most likely, but I wanted to know if I had any options......ill keep looking for the stg58 kit......tks..fubsy.
 
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