L.E.O.'s Requirments & qualification with handguns.

[12-34hom]

As many of you know i work as a peace officer in Iowa. As such, i have to qualify with my duty weapon twice a year.

This consists of Standard F.B.I. course, shot at a B-27 target, 50 shots, in relay's [each one timed] to pass muster an 80% score or better is needed. 250 = perfect score.

To me, this is fairly easy and sometimes wonder why more stringent requirments are not asked for peace officers. [like uping the requirment score to 90% would make sense to me]I have seen some officers in my county that are very poor shots & thier saftey ain't all that great either.

What is the consenses of the membership here? Any peace officers here want to chime in = feel free with suggestions and idea's along with anyone else who has a suggestion.

I know there are many factors that limit how much time and money is spent on training with handguns for duty porposes.

Thanks for any or all replies.

 

[Chris Orndorff]

Time and money, time and money. Our standard is 70% (on a 20 round course that we change each year-includes weak hand, flashlight, movement, etc.) and if we raised that standard by much we wouldn't have many people working here anymore. Specifically, the Administrative types would be looking for work, so...

We used to shoot a 60 round course, and when we changed to the 20 round courses it was interesting to note that the average score didn't change at all; 86-87%. Btw, we only qualify once a year.

No argument here that our standards should be raised. But you gotta have a) a boss who cares or b) a lawsuit.

 

[M1911]

I'm not a LEO, but could you tell me what the standard FBI course of fire is?

At LFI-2, we fired two qualifiers. One was quite challenging. The other was supposedly a "standard" police qualifer that was not very challenging. We used B27 targets. IIRC, the course of fire was:

1) at 10 yards, from the holster, draw and fire 6 shots, reload, fire 6 more shots. Time limit was 25 seconds.

2) at 25 yards, from behind a barricade, draw, kneel strong side, fire 6 shots. Reload, fire 6 shots from weak side. Reload, fire 6 shots from strong side. Time limit was 90 seconds.

30 shots total. Scoring was 5 pts for all hits in the grey. 3 pts for hits in the perp but in the white, not grey. 0 for any misses or hits on the paper but not on the perp.

Last I heard, the police force in the bedroom community that I live in hadn't qualified in at least 2 years. If there is ever a police shooting in our town that goes bad, I suspect that we'd quickly lose the expensive civil suit that will follow...

Jared

 

[Jeff OTMG]

M1911, what you mention is part of the old PPC course of fire. There was also prone, seated, left and right baracade from 50 yards. This may be what 12-34hom is talking about. The PPC is easy to administer so you can crank through a large number of officers safely in a short amount of time. The speed is usually dictated by the number of shooting lanes at the range. Each dept is different. Many dept shooting instructors are in their positions as a result of volunteering to redo the dept qualification course. In Austin they even have a night firing sequence where the LEO's must shoot while they have numerous light bars turned on providing the illumination. A very 'different' way of seeing your targets.

 

[Robert Foote]

Unfortunately, police departments are willing to spend more time, money, and effort on police funerals than they are training. When my last administrator came on board we sat down and I told him all the ways I could save him grief, money, lawsuits and bad publicity by doing my training job well--and I convinced him.

From the individual officer's standpoint: NO ONE has as much to lose as you do, and no one will care as much as you do.

We qualified 4X a year, night fire 1X. We fired the moderately hard required course and then got creative. If no one bled or got bruised we weren't trying hard enough. Failure to qualify (very rare) got your gun taken away and continued failure to do so could lose your job. I held open range days with free ammo one afternoon a week for one on one training. I documented EVERYTHING, good and bad. If a lawsuit ever came down my notes would be entered into evidence, and the chips would fall.

Worked pretty well. My goal was to do whatever I could to prevent police funerals in my office. Never had any. I can't claim all the credit, but we sure worked at it.

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[Jay Baker]

There are quite a few "standardized" qualification tests. Depends on quite a few things, as the above posters stated.

Unfortunately, today, many officers just don't really give a damn about shooting, other than to qualify, no matter the score. Some officers have the attitude of "Ahhh, hell, it can't ever happen to me." Or, "Ahh, hell, if it happens, I'll just drag out my heater and make the bad guy eat hot lead, hahaha."

Many officers today, hate firearms, as that was the way they were raised and brainwashed by their teachers and parents and the media. So they don't care about being truly proficient, either. Their firearm is just something heavy they have to wear on their Sam Brown Belt.

Then, as mentioned above, budgets sometimes are not enough to really buy enough ammo to allow for realistic, practical practice, plus, for night shooting (wHich is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT), a lot of overtime pay is required, in most departments.

It ain't gonna get any better, folks. JMHO. J.B.

 

[4V50 Gary]

Budget seems to be the biggest hurdle. Convincing an administrator that a well designed firearms training program can save lives, reduce liability and help morale is tough. Bean counters will always be bean counters.

I know of one officer's death because an administrator refused to have his agency (one with worldwide fame) trained in the failure drill. It was a tragic waste of a good officer's life before the agency snapped to reality.

There's a case which your rangemaster should be familar with. The case stands for the proposition that law enforcement training must be "realistic" as to what an officer is likely to encounter on the streets. Failure to make a program realistic may be cited as a "deliberate indifference" towards the civil rights of the shot individual, which thereby gives rise to a cause of action under Title 42, Section 1983. Canton. If your rangemaster doesn't know about this case and hasn't brought it to the administration's decision, he'd better learn quick.

BTW, the IALEFI ATC is coming up this October in Tampa, FL. The firearms training staff should attend.

 

[James K]

Hi, guys,

If an ex-LEO (long ago) can chime in, I would say that three things influence an officer's ability with a firearm. Interest, training, and budget. Note the order. The hard fact is that most police simply are not "gun people". They carry a gun, they think they can use it, but they have no real interest in learning gun skills. Some have no interest in learning anything except how to swagger around in uniform and intimidate the citizens.

The gun is a tool of the trade, and many police often don't consider even a minimal level of competence to be necessary. "I'll know how to use it if I need it" is a common reply to questions about firearms training.

I have tried training LEOs who simply could not possibly have cared less. Some departments have raised training standards only for fear of lawsuits in accidental shootings. Few police higher ups really care if police can shoot well or not as long as they meet some minimal standard so they can tell the press that "our police qualify..." (This means that that grandmother must have jumped in front of the cop's gun, since he missed the BG by 50 feet at a distance of 10 yards.)

Jim

 

[Monkeyleg]

Please forgive the dumb question from a citizen, but is the B-27 target the silhouette with the K-5, D-4's and such designations on them? Those are the only "official-looking" ones I've seen at the gun shops here. Seems like it would be awfully hard not to pass with one of those on the courses described.

Dick
Want to send a message to Bush? Sign the petition at http://www.petitiononline.com/monk/petition.html and forward the link to every gun owner you know.

 

[VictorLouis]

Robert: Your's was probably thee most high-speed program I've read about! Boy, would I have loved to be able to duplicate that at my former agency.

 

[bcsd372]

We qualify quarterly (1 night shoot). Course is 48 rds. handgun plus 5 rds. shotgun. Only takes 70% to pass and scores are recorded only as "pass" or "fail". Those who fail are given 2nd (and sometimes 3rd) chances to pass. You're right on ref. not tough enough and not often enough. I'm sure many guns aren't fired (let alone cleaned) between required qualifications.

 

[The Plainsman]

Although I hate to admit it since it was sooooo long ago, I spent a time as a deputy sheriff back in the "old" days before anyone had to qualify at all. As a matter of fact, most of the deputies had hardly ever fired their sidearms. The only practice I ever got was strictly on my own. My younger brother was the range office for a metro suburban PD and he started something that was new and different with most of the PD's in my area at the time - firing when you are winded. After he and another office were involved in a running shoot-out with a bank robber, he discovered that shooting after running 75-100 yards was a little different than the normal range stuff that his department did. From that day forward, all the officers on his department had to shoot a minimum score (I don't know what) after running a considerable distance. Do other departments do that today?

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If "the people" in the 1st, 4th, 9th & 10th amendments, means "the people", why do some folks think "the people" in the 2nd amendment means "the state"?

 

[mr. pitiful]

this is really sad. at our club IDPA matches, we have several LEO'S that compete, and it is scarry how many of them cant hit a thing. im only marksman class and im looking at these guys and thinking, ow.... my uncle practices at the locasl range where the police department in his town practices, and on more than one ocasion he has been asked if he would qualify for them. he didnt, but HOW SCARRY IS THAT. something else: i am all for law enforcement and think they are restricted a bit much at times, so dont think im bashing, BUT;;;;, isnt there SOME kind of physical fitness requirement??? we have officers here that must be a good 350 LBS. plus. i asked someone on the department this one time and was told that they do and they are very strict.....PHUH... how canthat be. i mean seriously, if there is someone attacking my wife or kids when im not home, this aint the guy i want climing three flights of stairs to rescue them, or God forbid theres a fire and he has to carry my a** out of the building. he'd never make it. or hows he gonna chase down some rapist who runs from him and gets away to attack agin.

 

[beemerb]

Tiss very scary.My home town in southern MN police officers never shoot.The chief when I left said he had fired 5 rounds out of his S&W model 10 in 12 yrs.The chief before him made a statement that he wouldn't carry a gun if they didn't make him.
Police around here?Shot one IDPA match in my life.68 shooters and the best scoring LEO was 27th.I was 12th.Excuse me I am not a bad shot but I am not really competion high class quality either.
These are the people that are drawing wages to protect me.I allways thought a person in a trade should have profency with there tools.This needs to be done on their own if the department doesn't provide the proper training.


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Bob--- Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.

 

[The Observer]

Jim Keenan, it is not apple polishing to you, but you have well stated the subject.

I remember an invitational tournament sponsored by the police directorate in my area, some of our competitors are SWAT Team, one of them was scolded when after finishing the course he just walk a few feet and loaded it with live bullets after showing it clear to the RO. The RO did not scold him immediately but he waited him to be at the safety area and told him not to do that again and he advised that he should member himself to a gun club to be more disciplined. The RO is also a Police Officer and well mannered and skilled of course to pitol handling.

My point here is, training and skill on gun- handling is really a must to all LEO's to avoid untoward incident of any kind towards every one.

 

[James K]

To reiterate:

INTEREST, TRAINING, BUDGET, in that order. If the people involved are not interested, no amount of training and no amount of ammunition will make them good shots. And they aren't interested. Some suggest that departments fire everyone who can't come up to a high standard with a pistol. So how do you say "911 doesn't answer"?

Jim