"Kit" guns?

[govmule84]

Hi guys...

One of my colleagues is looking to take, as payment for a debt, a "kit" gun. The gun in question is a copy of a MAC-10 (a firearm I know little about...it looks truly useless to me, but to each his own, ya know?).

The gun was evidently welded together from sheet steel that came in some sort of "DIY Kit".

Obviously, it has no serial. Can a serial number be legally attached to this gun? Who does this? It would be in the state of DE, if that matters... I told him to ten-foot pole this deal, but it looks like he's never gonna collect from this guy, so this might be his only real option, so I told him I would ask on here, to find out.

Thanks for the help in advance!
-Liam

 

[Microgunner]

Yes, you can serial # any firearm that lacks one. You simply inform the BATFE of the situation and the serial # you're applying, get yourself the number stamps or have a machinist do it for you. You can make up any # you want. We had one stamped CP1.

 

[trigger happy]

I thought a kitgun was typically a .22, I believe the OP means parts gun

 

[Microgunner]

I thought a kitgun was typically a .22, I believe the OP means parts gun

No, there used to be any number of sheet metal firearms that came in kit form. Since the receiver was simply a sheet or tube of metal onto which you glued a plan, cut out and welded together it was not classified as a receiver. Hence no serial# and no regulation. Shotgun News used to be full of them.

 

[michael t]

copy of a MAC-10 (a firearm I know little about...it looks truly useless to me, but to each his own, ya know?).

You said the magic words "useless" It would have to be a small debt say under a dollar to even consider

 

[gyvel]

Everyone seems to have overlooked the fact that this so-called "kit" gun could possibly have been made up to be FA.

 

[Gav-n-Tn]

Here's a little FYI history:

There were kit guns just like the one that you are talking about that were manufactured by a company named Leinad,Inc. in Ducktown, Tn..
They look like a MAC for a reason. The company actually manufactured complete MAC 11/9s and several others. I just sold one in rifle config earlier this year.
They (Leinad. Which was the owner's name spelled back wards) were also sued in New York, along with several other manufacturers, as a result of one of their kit guns that was allegedly purchased, assembled and used in the commission of a crime (a 1994 shooting attack on a van full of Hasidic students on the Brooklyn Bridge that left one dead and two others wounded.
). They were not found to be culpable.

 

[44 AMP]

Here's the kicker...

The "kit" as is, is probably legal. However, if the assembled gun will be a full auto, then assembly is NOT LEGAL.

The collection of parts may be worth a couple hundred dollars (possibly more to the right buyer), but if it is a full auto gun, assembly is worth 10 years in jail, plus a hefty fine (think tens of thousands of dollars), and of course, the loss of your rights to ever own firearms again. Think about that.

You would need someone knowledgable about the design of these kinds of guns to examine the kit, to determine if, with the existing parts, it would function as a semi auto only.

IF that is the case, then what you will have is a clunky semi auto clone of a SMG, examples of which, from factories have brought as much as $800, but being a "homemade" gun, would likely bring only half that, if that. And that's only if you can find a willing buyer foolish enough to part with that much cash!

And, if this is in payment for a debt, be sure to figure out the cost in labor to built it, and register it (give it a valid ser#), and subtract that from the possible sale price, to determine the actual value of the goods being offered.

My advice would be the same as you gave your friend, steer clear of it, unless you can know for certain it will be a legal gun if built. Don't take the word of the guy who has the kit, he may not know.

 

[Uncle Buck]

Microgunner, are you confusing kit gun with "zip gun"? We called the guns we made at home on the farm and in school machine shop a zipgun, and you are right, they normallyfired a .22 cal bullet.

 

[govmule84]

Fellas...

It is assembled.

It is semi-auto only.

I do not know how readily this thing could be converted to FA...I have never seen it, and could die peacefully if that circumstance continues.

I say it's a ten-foot pole piece, like I said. But evidently,
he could, say, bring it to an FFL, and they could serial and call this in for him?

-L.

 

[44 AMP]

yes, they could

The proper way to do these things is get the ser# before manufacture, but I don't think he'll have any serious problems doing it after the fact.

I wouldn't touch it, but if you friend wants to, under the conditions you describe, he can. Suggest having him call the dealer or the ATF to find out the correct procedure.

The only other issue I can see is if the homemade MAC fires from the open bolt. The ATF is notoriously sticky about open bolt guns, as they consider them capable of being "readily convertable" to full auto. A couple of makers of MAC style open bolt semis had to redesign their guns to fire from the closed bolt, back in the 80s, to avoid legal hassles. You might mention that to your friend too.

Good luck.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

It is legal for an individual to make a gun. However, that gun can not be transferred legally.

 

[govmule84]

First, how would one tell if a gun fires from an open bolt?

Second, Mr. DeShivs and 44AMP appear to be in direct disagreement with each other...can one of you gentlemen clarify?

-Liam

 

[gyvel]

First, how would one tell if a gun fires from an open bolt?

If, when you grasp the cocking knob and retract the bolt, it stays back in an open position it is classified as an "open bolt" firing gun. It takes about 30 seconds with a pair of dikes to cut a pin off the disconnecter and convert to FA.

Some MACs could be converted to FA simply by putting a piece of wood behind the trigger, which would apparently limit trigger travel and negate the disconnecter altogether.

This is why BATF takes a dim view of these guns.

 

[carguychris]

First, how would one tell if a gun fires from an open bolt?

Easy. If the bolt starts out in the forward position when the trigger is pulled, it's closed bolt. If the bolt starts out in the reaward position and moves forward when the trigger is pulled, it's open-bolt.

Open bolt blowback firing sequence:

1) pull trigger, 2) bolt goes forward under spring pressure, 3) bolt strips fresh round from magazine, 4) bolt pushes round into battery, 5) firing pin strikes primer, 6) BANG, 7) recoil pushes bolt back into rearward position and extracts empty case.

Closed bolt blowback firing sequence:

1) pull trigger, 2) firing pin strikes primer, 3) BANG, 4) recoil pushes bolt back into rearward position and extracts empty case, 5) bolt goes forward under spring pressure, 6) bolt strips fresh round from magazine, 7) bolt pushes round into battery.

Most purpose-built SMGs and MGs are open-bolt because the trigger mechanism is simpler; the mechanism "wants" to keep cycling until the mag is empty or something stops it. Also, since the bolt only contacts the unfired round for a fraction of a second, the rounds are less likely to spontaneously fire or "cook off" if the bolt gets really hot. OTOH the vast majority of US-legal semi-auto firearms are closed-bolt, since they're inherently more difficult to convert to full-auto and therefore more BATFE-friendly.

 

[Daryl]

Some MACs could be converted to FA simply by putting a piece of wood behind the trigger, which would apparently limit trigger travel and negate the disconnecter altogether.

I worked in a gunshop for a few months back in about 1986, and we had one come through there. I thought pretty seriously about buying it (it sold used for a couple hundred bucks), but I really had no use for it.

It was an open bolt mac-10 type gun in .380. If you put a common pencil behind the trigger, the bolt wouldn't lock so would go full-auto.

The owner tried it, "just for fun", and took it down to the river to try "spraying" bullets up the river. It emptied 36 rounds into about 4", so to really work right it would have needed a lighter spring on the bolt.

But, it sold from the shop before long, and the owner has long since passed, so I can share the info as an "fyi" without worrying too much about the men in dark sunglasses knocking on my door tomorrow. Not much I could telll them now, anyway.

If I was in the OP's friend's place, I'd forget the deal, and write off the debt if I had to. The gun isn't worth the legal risk it poses IMO.

Daryl

 

[Bill DeShivs]

It is legal under federal law to manufacture a gun for your own use.
If you sell/transfer the gun, you then become a "manufacturer" which requires licensing. There is no serial number required on home made guns for personal use.

 

[rc]

If there is any chance this is going to get you in trouble. Don't do it! It sounds very suspect to me. I was reading recently about gun shows where people were baited to do things that were illegal and then screwed by authorities. It's just not worth the risk for any price. Ask for CASH or something else in trade that has no legal risk if you transfer it to someone else in order to get your money.

 

[govmule84]

It's not mine, rc...I'm the local "gun guru" at work, and really, I don't know the difference between Shinola and the other thing...

I just told the guy I'd see what I could do...My personal advice was to avoid it, and it looks like I am gonna keep singing that song, and point him to this thread.

I appreciate all the help, fellas, and the education between "closed" and "open" bolts was insightful as well.

'Preciate it. Y'all are the smartest group of gunnies I'm likely to run into.

 

[B.L.E.]

Most purpose-built SMGs and MGs are open-bolt because the trigger mechanism is simpler; the mechanism "wants" to keep cycling until the mag is empty or something stops it. Also, since the bolt only contacts the unfired round for a fraction of a second, the rounds are less likely to spontaneously fire or "cook off" if the bolt gets really hot. OTOH the vast majority of US-legal semi-auto firearms are closed-bolt, since they're inherently more difficult to convert to full-auto and therefore more BATFE-friendly.

I read somewhere that the machine guns installed in certain WWII fighter aircraft were open bolt. This allowed air to blow through the barrel between firing bursts for more effective cooling.