Keeping FFL Copies
- Thread starter ZeroJunk
- Start date
Aguila Blanca
Staff
It depends on where you live.
My state is one of those that doesn't keep a "registry," but does manage to have a record of every firearm bought or sold within the state. Since the police know that I owned a gun at one time, I would keep the record of its disposition in perpetuity.
If you live in one of the free states, this may not be a concern for you.
My state is one of those that doesn't keep a "registry," but does manage to have a record of every firearm bought or sold within the state. Since the police know that I owned a gun at one time, I would keep the record of its disposition in perpetuity.
If you live in one of the free states, this may not be a concern for you.
I would never depend upon any agency to keep records that someday may save my butt from prosecution or implement me in a crime. I have a form which I downloaded off the Internet which is a very good Firearms Bill of Sale form. The hard copy went in my safe but not before I scanned a copy and put it in a computer file. If a gun I sold was ever involved in a criminal activity, I have definitive proof that it was not in my possession at the time of the crime.
The form has a brief questionnaire that the buyer has to fill out and basically asks if he/she is legal to own a gun. They sign a statement attesting to it and it also asks for a drivers license number and a firearms ID number. I call it the CYA form.
The form has a brief questionnaire that the buyer has to fill out and basically asks if he/she is legal to own a gun. They sign a statement attesting to it and it also asks for a drivers license number and a firearms ID number. I call it the CYA form.
Uncle Buck
New member
45Gunner: Could you post a copy of that paper? Thanks.
Currently, I just make an annotation on my paperwork who I sold it to, when and what price I was paid for it.
Currently, I just make an annotation on my paperwork who I sold it to, when and what price I was paid for it.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
While I agree with 45Gunner about not trusting a bureaucracy to keep records accurately (especially if said records help you but not them), but I feel compelled to point out that the original question in THIS thread was about FFLs. The issue of paperwork for direct, face-to-face sales in states that allow such is always contentious. 45Gunner may want his CYA form if he sells a firearm privately (and I understand the reasons for it), but the flip side is that if I am a buyer and if I wanted a paper trail, I'd be buying from an FFL in the first place. If I were dealing with a private seller and he asked me to provide a bunch of personal information and to sign a form, the deal would end right there.
Of course, it's easy for me to hold to principle, because my state doesn't allow private transfers without paperwork. So perhaps it's because I am already preconditioned to sell through an FFL, but I think I'd sell through an FFL even if it were NOT required, because then it isn't my responsibility to decide whether or not the buyer is prohibited.
Of course, it's easy for me to hold to principle, because my state doesn't allow private transfers without paperwork. So perhaps it's because I am already preconditioned to sell through an FFL, but I think I'd sell through an FFL even if it were NOT required, because then it isn't my responsibility to decide whether or not the buyer is prohibited.
Your other option, of course, is to let an FFL do the transfer.
This will show that you delivered the firearm to the dealer, he either transferred it to another dealer, who then transferred it to the final owner, or transferred it directly to the final owner.
Let the dealer keep the records for you.
This will show that you delivered the firearm to the dealer, he either transferred it to another dealer, who then transferred it to the final owner, or transferred it directly to the final owner.
Let the dealer keep the records for you.
Rifleman1776
New member
I think you have little to no risk of getting in trouble. But it can happen.
Storing a few papers is not difficult. Put in an envelope and save. You have nothing to lose by doing that.
Storing a few papers is not difficult. Put in an envelope and save. You have nothing to lose by doing that.
AirForceShooter
New member
pull out a stack of Bills of sale in front of an ATF agent and you're going to be answering questions about dealing guns.
Happened to a Friend of mine.
I'm in Florida. FTF is legal and no paperwork is ever necessary.
I don't ask for it and I don't do it.
AFS
Happened to a Friend of mine.
I'm in Florida. FTF is legal and no paperwork is ever necessary.
I don't ask for it and I don't do it.
AFS
None of these sales were face to face, all were shipped to an FFL and transferred accordingly. Probably shortsighted on my part, but I don't have a note on the FFL copy of what the gun was. All but one were long guns, the only pistol was shipped by my FFL agent to the buyer's.
When I sell a gun I keep the copy of the FFL / EZ check printout with the sender's shipping sticker from UPS attached to it.
It's not required, but it's not hard to store a few pieces of paper in a file. In the unlikely event that a gun I sold is ever involved in an ATF trace, I'll feel a lot better saying "Gun XXX was shipped to FFL #YYY on the 12th of April, 2008. Would you like a scan of the UPS receipt?" than sitting there saying "I dunno what happened to it."
It's not required, but it's not hard to store a few pieces of paper in a file. In the unlikely event that a gun I sold is ever involved in an ATF trace, I'll feel a lot better saying "Gun XXX was shipped to FFL #YYY on the 12th of April, 2008. Would you like a scan of the UPS receipt?" than sitting there saying "I dunno what happened to it."
FIREARM BILL OF SALE
Buyer certifies that they are not restricted or forbidden by law to own a firearm and buyer states that he/she:
• Has NEVER been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year.
• Is NOT a fugitive from justice.
• Is NOT an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance.
• Has NEVER been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to a mental institution.
• Is NOT an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United states or an alien admitted to the United states under a nonimmigrant visa.
• Has NOT been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions.
• Having been a citizen of the United states, has NEVER renounced his or her citizenship.
• Is NOT subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner.
• Has NOT been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence
• CAN lawfully receive, possess, ship, or transport a firearm.
• Is NOT a person who is under indictment or information for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year.
I truthfully state that I AM NOT a person who cannot legally buy, receive, and posses firearms and/or ammunition.
Full Name _________________________________________ Signature _______________________________________
Firearm(s) sold
Make: __________________ Model:_____________ Caliber: ____________ S/N: _______________ Cost: ___________
Make: __________________ Model:_____________ Caliber: ____________ S/N: _______________ Cost: ___________
Make: __________________ Model:_____________ Caliber: ____________ S/N: _______________ Cost: ___________
Buyer Seller
(NAME) (NAME)
(ADDRESS) (ADDRESS)
(DL) (DL)
(CWL) (CWL)
(Contact #) (Contact #)
I understand the firearm is sold AS-IS and no warranty has been implied or given. Firearm should be inspected by a
competent gunsmith prior to using. Seller not responsible for any damages incurred or caused by the use of this firearm.
Sale Conditions: _____________________________________________________________________________________
Buyer Signature:_________________________________ Seller Signature:_____________________________________
Sale Date
Buyer certifies that they are not restricted or forbidden by law to own a firearm and buyer states that he/she:
• Has NEVER been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year.
• Is NOT a fugitive from justice.
• Is NOT an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance.
• Has NEVER been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to a mental institution.
• Is NOT an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United states or an alien admitted to the United states under a nonimmigrant visa.
• Has NOT been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions.
• Having been a citizen of the United states, has NEVER renounced his or her citizenship.
• Is NOT subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner.
• Has NOT been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence
• CAN lawfully receive, possess, ship, or transport a firearm.
• Is NOT a person who is under indictment or information for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year.
I truthfully state that I AM NOT a person who cannot legally buy, receive, and posses firearms and/or ammunition.
Full Name _________________________________________ Signature _______________________________________
Firearm(s) sold
Make: __________________ Model:_____________ Caliber: ____________ S/N: _______________ Cost: ___________
Make: __________________ Model:_____________ Caliber: ____________ S/N: _______________ Cost: ___________
Make: __________________ Model:_____________ Caliber: ____________ S/N: _______________ Cost: ___________
Buyer Seller
(NAME) (NAME)
(ADDRESS) (ADDRESS)
(DL) (DL)
(CWL) (CWL)
(Contact #) (Contact #)
I understand the firearm is sold AS-IS and no warranty has been implied or given. Firearm should be inspected by a
competent gunsmith prior to using. Seller not responsible for any damages incurred or caused by the use of this firearm.
Sale Conditions: _____________________________________________________________________________________
Buyer Signature:_________________________________ Seller Signature:_____________________________________
Sale Date
I wouldn't worry about keeping the FFL's. Just keep a log of where each gun was sent. If there's a trace, you can refer the ATF to the dealer, who will have all the information on his books.
Most of the time, if a gun you sold ends up in nefarious circumstances, "I sold it" is an explanation. Once.
If it happens more than once, expect some very hard questions. I know a guy who was wheeling and dealing, and three of the guns he sold ended up being traced in a two-week period. Suddenly, jokes about "tragic boating accidents" don't seem so funny.
Uncle Buck
New member
Thanks 45! I have copied and pasted this to my computer.
I understand that most FTF transfer are simple, safe and perfectly legit. But I would like to help out any investigation that may arise from a gun I sold. I have trouble remembering what I did last week, I sure am not going to remember every name I ever sold a gun to.
You do not want to fill out the information, No problem, I will sell it to someone else.
Edited to add: Don't get me wrong, I have sold a few guns to buddies and family members with no paperwork (Except the cash). On one of my records I see I sold a rifle to a guy by the name of XXXXX Allen, back in 2006. I had totally forgotten about it and I could not tell you much about the guy or where he is now.
I understand that most FTF transfer are simple, safe and perfectly legit. But I would like to help out any investigation that may arise from a gun I sold. I have trouble remembering what I did last week, I sure am not going to remember every name I ever sold a gun to.
You do not want to fill out the information, No problem, I will sell it to someone else.
Edited to add: Don't get me wrong, I have sold a few guns to buddies and family members with no paperwork (Except the cash). On one of my records I see I sold a rifle to a guy by the name of XXXXX Allen, back in 2006. I had totally forgotten about it and I could not tell you much about the guy or where he is now.
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This is true, sold a handgun at the gun show ( with a bill of sale ) Gun turned up in N.J. used in a robbery and guess where LE came to inquire about said firearm. Me being I am the end of the paper trail through LE and the ATF. Glad I had the bill of sale to prove the sale and give LE the "NEW" owners info and let him answer the questions