Kahr PM45, CS/BS follow-up thread

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darko

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I am starting a new thread as a follow up to this one:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=414928

Long story short, this is my second faulty Kahr pistol, a PM45. I purchased it new about two weeks ago to find that the breach face did not clear the rim of the rounds in the mag below (which caused major failures). Not related to break-in or ammo. I shipped it back to Kahr just a week after purchase for warranty repair (after some minor hassles with their customer service dept.)

Allow me to go back in time for a moment. 2007(ish) I purchased a P40. The rounds would nose dive into a nearly vertical feed ramp. After several hundred rounds it was shipped back to Kahr. They did virtually nothing to repair it (all they did was polish the feed ramp and send it back). The pistol continued to fail. I sold it at a significant loss.

Now, 2010. I purchased this PM45 (why-I'm not sure after my first Kahr experience except to say that I liked the looks and size of the PM45). Again-problems. Sent back to Kahr.

I just got my PM45 back from Kahr a few minutes ago. They only had it for about a week-impressive. I opened the box and read the included repair sheet to see what they did to fix it. It said that they "lubed and polished slide". THAT'S IT!!!!. They didn't do jack *&^%!!!!! The problem was/is the breach face alignment with the magazine/rounds below. I even included a photo showing how the round was stuck under the breach face! :mad: Did they even read the freaking letter I included with the problem description? A cursory inspection of my pistol does not reveal any changes or modification to the breach face area??

I am more than a little upset right now and in all fairness cannot say that what they did, did, or did not fix the problem until I can get it home and load it. I will definately do so and report back tomorrow but it seems difficult to beleive that it is fixed based on what they did.

I will say this. If I determine that the problem still exists then I will be selling my second Kahr at a loss and will be as anti-Kahr as one might imagine given my experiences with their products and services. As stated in my other thread there are ways to get around the problem (such as slingshotting, manual racking, smacking the mag in hard enough to chip off the edge of the rim and force the round past the breach face, and special round alignment of the top round in the magazine when loading mags), but these are all mickey mouse ways of doing things. I bought this pistol with one purpose in mind-self defense. In a life/death situation it is highly unlikely that I am going to remember that my carry pistol has to handled in some specialized manner due to design flaws. I do not beleive that any pistol should have to be operated as such.

I knew that I may be taking a gamble in buying this pistol given my past experience, so I have to blame myself. I guess that this is why I don't usually gamble.
 
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hdawson228

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Sorry to hear of the continuing problem and lack of resolution. Fortunately, my CW9 has been absolutely perfect in every way from day one.

Please keep us updated.:cool:
 
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icenoir

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As i noted in the original thread, this exactly what customer support did for me- nothing. Twice. Goodbye Kahr!!
 
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hoytinak

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Back when the PM9's first came out I bought one and had nothing but problems with it. It got send back to Kahr 3 times for failing to feed and when I got it back the third time and it still didn't work I was pretty upset myself. I actually took a 4 1/2" angle grinder to it and cut it up into about 100 peices and tossed it in the trash (I couldn't bring myself to selling someone else that POS) swearing I'd never own another Kahr. Well here I am years later and my daily carry is a Kahr K9 that's been 100% reliable. Glad I got a good one the second time around otherwise I'd really be anti-Kahr.
 
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spacecoast

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darko -

Just for clarification, are you saying that the breech face does not retract far enough when the slide is racked to catch the next round? Or that the gap between the extractor and the breech face is too narrow to accept the rim? Could you post the photo you sent to Kahr?
 
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darko

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I don't have the ability to post photos but would pm (no pun intended) a photo to anyone that could post it (although it may be difficult to see).

are you saying that the breech face does not retract far enough when the slide is racked to catch the next round?
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Yes. From my initial range report and was copied-sent to Kahr with the pistol:

FOLLOW UP:

I spent some time looking at the pistol last night and figured out what was going on with my day one (and current) problems. I am not sure if I have the terminology correct but will do my best. When loading the magazine into the weapon it is very tight and needs to be pushed fairly hard to lock it into place. When looking into the weapon from above, with a loaded mag and the slide locked back the reason for the mag tension and the existing malfuntions becomes obvious.

The breach face, (not sure if that is the correct term-the portion of the slide where the base of the round and the primer make contact with the slide and the firing pin) protrudes a little beyond the base/rim of the round below. In other words, instead of the round sticking up a little in front of the breach face for the slide to pull forward it is actually stuck below therefore, when the slide is released from its held position via the slide release it scrapes along the top of the round pushing the round down-forward into the slide release mechanism in turn forcing the slide release out. End result-a jam and the slide release pushed half way out.

Said discovery also explains why I had no problems on day two when I completely avoided the use of the slide release, instead pulling back on the locked slide to charge it. When doing so, I was pulling the slide further back than the position it is normally in while held by the slide lock/release mechanism.

I found two remedies for this problem. One, slap the magazine in hard enough to force the round past the edge of the breach face. When doing this there is consistantly a peice of shaving cut from the rim of the round as it is forced past the bottom edge of the breach face and into position. Option two, when loading the magazine leaving the top round pushed slightly forward also allows the round to clear the breach face. Regarding this last option, the magazine slides effortlessly into the weapon as opposed to the tight/difficult fit experienced during normal loading.

Bottom line, although I can employ either tactic described above to overcome the current problems one should not have to. I am fairly confident that the pistol would-should be reliable were it not for the slide/round positioning. I suppose that I will have to call Kahr today and see what they suggest although I was hoping to avoid this.

PS-The problem exists with both mags, so it does not appear to be the result of a faulty mag. Also, break-in periods and brand of ammo does not appear to be a factor regarding the noted problems described.
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Last edited by darko; June 29, 2010 at 08:28 AM.
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hoytinak

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darko's PM45 pic

It is hard it see though

PM45.jpg
 
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darko

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Thanks for the help hoytinak. The photo shows the alignment with the slide locked back on a fully loaded mag. If you look carefully you can see what I am talking about. That round and its rim are being pushed down and is underneath the breach face. If you look at the edges of the magazine itself you can see that there is a gap, meaning that top pressure is being applied to the rounds. When released from there it jams that round up pretty good and forces the slide release half way out. You have to clear the jam and follow assembly procedures to get the slide lock/release back in.

When functioning normally, that round is up (partially) in front of the lower portion of that breach face. Release the slide and the round is pushed forward-loaded. At leasst that is the way it is supposed to be. At least that is how every other pistol that I have owned or even encountered tends to function.
 
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spacecoast

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Thanks darko -

It's really ironic that this problem occurs on a Kahr, which to my knowledge is the only manufacturer which goes out of its way to recommend that you chamber the first round in a new mag using the slide release rather than manually racking the slide, which is the preferred method (at least by 2/3 of the 187 people here who voted on it a couple of months ago). It sounds like manual racking is a workaround, although Kahr might disagree.

It would seem that maybe the slide release or the notch to hold the slide in place by the release are not positioned correctly. Good luck getting it resolved.
 
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darko

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Is it just me, or given the photo and descriptions that I provided could Kahr CS not see what the *&^^ I am talking about:confused: Because I am not sure how polishing and lubing the slide has anything to do with what is going on:mad:

It's really ironic that this problem occurs on a Kahr, which to my knowledge is the only manufacturer which goes out of its way to recommend that you chamber the first round in a new mag using the slide release rather than manually racking the slide
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Agreed, although I can see why they may encourage use of a slide release mechanism. The spring tension on that slide is pretty tough. If one were to try and rack it without pulling it back far enough it would not catch the round, (much as it is doing now with the use of the slide release). Yes, it is ironic. Okay, I think that I have blown enough steam for today. I will cross my fingers and see what happens when I test it out later.
 
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chris in va

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Seems once Kahr branched out from their all steel pistols and going with larger calibers, things started going downhill. The design was really meant just for the 9mm IMO.

My K9 has been perfect FWIW.

On a side note, this is another good reason to start reloading. In your case the bullet could be seated a little deeper in the case to allow clearance for the feed ramp. You should see how deep I have to seat my lead boolits for my CZ just so they can chamber properly.

I see the rounds are nickel plated which suggests JHP. How many other brands of FMJ have you tried?
 
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hdawson228

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Shadi. I would suggest he wait till he shoots it some.

Btw I'm with Chris. .45 is pretty big for such a small weapon. My polymer CW9 has been perfect from shot one. Now has the CT laser since my eyes are aging.:cool:
 
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Shadi Khalil

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Of course he should shoot it first but i doubt much will change, considering they only lubed it. I own a kahr and have had others in the past that had to go back so I know it sometimes takes them a couple trys.
 
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darko

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Greg,
The photos in your link are excellent and clearly show the problem. I would encourage anyone reading this thread to check it out.
 
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darko

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Follow-up/Closure:

When I got the pistol home yesterday, I loaded up a magazine and inserted it. I immediately noticed that the mag slid in almost effortlessly. When checking alignment I could see that the top round was now in the correct position. I dropped the slide and bingo-it works.

I then field stripped the pistol to see if I could determine what they (Kahr) did to fix the problem. Their description of "polishing the slide" appeared to have been somewhat deceptive (or perhaps it is gunsmith terminology for what they did) but I immediately noticed that they shaved/rounded the edge off of the bottom portion of the breach face where the round was previously being trapped underneath.

Gregs link shows the same exact fix that Kahr did with mine. In all reality it was probably the only possible solution.

So, I will close by saying that after some hassles, grief, and disappointment, Kahr did make good. Being as this issue was the only problem that I was having I will assume that my next range trip will be (hopefully) hassle-free. I beleive that this will unquestioningly be my last Kahr purchase given my experiences with their products though.
 
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spacecoast

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Glad it's been fixed for you. It begs the question, though, if rounding that edge is something Kahr forgets to do on a few guns, or if the tolerances are that loose in manufacturing that some guns need it and some don't.

Perhaps other Kahr PM45 owners can comment on the profile of that edge in their pistols...
 
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