Just how stupid are we?

[Tibu]

When a country has a moronic population, does that affect the democratic system of that country? Here's something to chew on:

"Only 2 in 5 Americans know we have 3 branches of government and can name them. Only 1 out of 7 Americans can find Iraq on a map. Only 1 out 5 know we have 100 U.S. senators. On the eve of the Iraq war, 70% of Americans believed Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11. 80% of the people who supported the war mentioned this as their main reason for supporting the war. What kind of a democracy can you have when the single biggest event of our time comes along, and you can't get the basic facts right?"

This is the premise of the latest book from historian Rick Shenkman, "Just How Stupid Are We?: Facing the Truth About the American Voter". I'm not here to do any sort of promotion for the book but I wanted to start a discussion on the subject. Do you think a democracy is lessened when the majority of the population is voting on issues they know nothing about, got their opinion from a conglomerated TV news media source, or have a completely wrong understanding about them? This goes beyond party lines. The war example is troubling considering what was/is at stake and it's importance.

 

[sholling]

I would have to agree that for the last 40 years or so the public school monoply has been remarkably successful in creating two generations that are in many cases incompetent vote. At least one of those generation for the most part incapable of even making change from a dollar without electronic aids. And in brain washing the public into maintaining their loyalty to that monopoly at the expense of their own children's futures.

 

[SecDef]

What kind of a democracy can you have when the single biggest event of our time comes along, and you can't get the basic facts right?

The VP and FNC spent quite a bit of time obfuscating the truth.

Bin Laden still isn't even on the FBI top 10 for 9/11(only for other things). . . who knows what the truth is.

 

[Sgt.Fathead]

I have worked for many years as a night shift custodian at a local public high school. I interact with many of the students, get to know them over their years as they head towards graduation, college, military service, the work force. Yes, many of these young people are grossly ignorant of the history of our nation, it's workings, basic workaday mathematics, basic science. Overall, their communication skills are appalling; poor speech, lousy penmanship, terrible grammar, no sentence structure, no writing ability. Their manners, too, are abysmal. They couple a total lack of respect with an arrogant sense of entitlement. A co-worker of mine was incensed for months when he was told by a young teacher that few of her students could tell time on the analog clock on the wall and many were bewildered when she wrote on the board in a foreign language during one of her Math classes. She had written in script. In English.

Quite a few have impressed me over the years, too. Many students that I thought unmanageable as Freshmen are this year's meritorious scholars and class leaders as Seniors. There are many factors for this strange decline; lack of parenting and strong role models, raised by TV and day care, no real discipline, no focus on basic skills, no consequences for unacceptable behaviors, etc. Mom and dad want to Johnny and Susie's friends, not their parents. Mom dressed like daughter, both too scantily I might add, and Dad lives vicariously through junior's sports achievements. Too much mature material too early but no real maturity, of course.

The solution is elusive but there seems to be, at least where I am working, a very positive and unexpected surge; new young teachers eager for their place in the educational system who are using the older model of zero tolerance discipline in the classroom. We shall see in the coming year if this improves our lot.

 

[rampage841512]

My entire time in High School I saw a gradual dumbing down of the subjects studied. It's only become worse since I graduated. A classmate of mine, whose dream was to teach, quit her teaching job and went back to school after a year. Her reason, "I can't fail them if they don't do their work or show up for test, and I can't punish them for bad behavior. I wanted to teach, not hand out passing grades to whoever happens to show up."

 

[Sgt.Fathead]

Unfortunately, the No Child Left Behind Law means just that; teach the test, raise scores, increase funding by showing those increased scores. As I said, we've got a new dedicated group, different from the usual batch of rookie pedagogues in their approach to discipline in the classroom. We'll see how they fare.

 

[DieHard06]

I am a pastor and my wife is a school teacher. I am amazed at how many children come to church and don't know how to read. Literally, some of them are in sixth grade and are reading at a first grade level, taking five minutes to pronounce out the words in a single sentence. Oh, and my wife and just about every school teacher she knows very much dislike the no child left behind policy. I will say that although I grew up learning about the branches of government, the constitution, bill of rights, and history of our government, it wasn't until after I graduated college that I grasped the importance of understanding it. Now I wish I had paid better attention to it, rather than just doing the work to get a good grade. I don't think most children and teens really grasp the importance of our government and what is happening in the world.

 

[wingman]

Over a 40 year period I've seen first hand the dumbing down of our public schools, not sure if its intentional to further the idea of a rich and poor society or schools were more concerned with social issues, no one to blame, everyone is a winner, etc, the fact is we have a society that takes more interest in American Idol then an election and most certainly we all will pay.

When I raised my children and local schools were not teaching simple math we started to do so at home and strained our budget to provide tutors when possible and it paid off. Truthfully I would not send another kid to public school while there are great teachers the system is against them.

 

[Wuchak]

No Child Left Behind requires that each State set educational goals for students at each grade level and then test the kids to see if they have learned what they, the state said they are going to teach them. NCLB does not set any standards, it just requires the States to do so and to prove they are capable of teaching. If your job is to educate children, or anyone else, shouldn't you have some kind of integrated plan about what you are going to teach them? Wouldn't you want to test to make sure they are learning it?

They should be teaching to the test because what's on the test is what the state said the kids have to learn. The whole notion that teaching to the test is somehow a bad thing is absurd. Law school teaches the test, namely the Bar exam. Accounting majors are taught to the test, namely the CPA exam, and so it goes for every profession where there is a certification required to practice it. Every professional education program I've taken that requires an exam teaches the information that is required to be known and understood for the certification test. They teach to the test.

The reason NCLB is so hated is that it lifts the rock and reveals the truth that most of our public schools are filled by incompetent teachers and administrators and that most of them couldn't teach a puppy to sit, let alone children to read and do math. The outcry about NCLB stems from those who don't want this truth known and who have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, namely the teachers and their union. What other job can you get where you can be guaranteed employment for life and never have your performance measured?

When I think back to my college days the people I knew who were going to be teachers were the biggest group of slackers and pot heads around and were going into teaching because it was an easy major and they wanted summers off. Teaching itself might be hard but the college programs for it are among the easiest on campus. English and History are the only ones I can think of that are easier. I never met an education major with real drive. Those with drive were majoring in engineering, law, business, architecture, mathematics, computer science, etc.

I'm also troubled that the original poster thinks this lack of education threatens our Democracy. We don't have a democracy. We have a Constitutional Republic. The difference between them is like the difference between throwing a bullet and shooting it and our government should never, ever, be referred to as a democracy. This just perpetuates the lie. Why would our leaders want the electorate to think they have a democracy? Because then they are able to do whatever the majority wants without being questioned, instead of having each of their actions or plans placed against the measuring stick of the Constitution. If our schools suck and our students don't know about our government it's because those in power want it that way. An educated electorate, that understood the Constitution and the principles behind it is the last thing they want because they would all be out on their butts or in prison for treason.

I'm also tired of hearing about how bad the kids are these days. Kids are just kids. If their behavior, manners, and performance is bad it's because we, as a society, have not done our job to correct it. We have failed them. They are just kids and the victims of our incompetence, laziness, and apathy.

 

[Darren007]

Awww geez....can we stop with the old people complaining about young people posts.

I notice a lot of what the older generation complains about is the basic reading, writing, and math. But I dont see it. I'm 32, and I can remember asking Mom and Dad for help and them saying things like..."wow, we never learned this in school"..."they never taught us how to do these math problems"...etc

It works both ways guys, but it also depends on where you go to school. Not all public schools are the same in quality, what they teach, and how they teach it. It's important to point out as well, that each generation is more literate than the last. The people complaining about young people not knowing how to read or using poor grammar, either forget or dont realize that far more kids in their day were worse.

But it also a cultural gap between generations. Every generation has their own "lingo", style of dress, and beliefs and world views. I suspect the further those generations are apart the more idiotic the younger ones seem to the older ones. And thus you get this image of the kids being "dumbed down".

 

[sholling]

Wuchak hit the nail on the head. The system fights accountability! If we look to Japan for an example of excellence in education we'll see a real success story. True a good deal of that success is because parents drive their children to succeed, but just as important is the system. You don't advance to the next grade level until you prove via standardized tests that you've mastered your current grade level - and that process starts young. We should be doing it starting in the third grade - before the kids get left behind.

Darren007, I wasn't kidding about not being able to make change for a dollar. I see it all the time.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

One must recall the classic incident on Chris Matthew's Hardball, when a GOP 'strategist' called Obama an appeaser as Chamberlain was in pre-WWII.

Matthew's asked him repeatedly to say what Chamberlain actually did. The dude mumbled and ranted about appeasement and finally had to say that he had NO idea under the baleful glare of Chris. It was a well done moment demonstrating the vacuous nature of much of the political debate.

 

[Epyon]

People shouldn't breed...

Well that's how I feel with the mass of idiots out there. Parents letting their six year old dress like harlots, expecting society to raise their kids, and that their child is so special that they shouldn't face consequences of any kind if they commit to a wrongful action. The disgusting and obscene garbage on TV doesn't make it any better either. In the end though, when rights are completely eroded and all there is left is complicity to an iron fist, only then will they turn to those brave enough and smart enough who want their freedoms back.


Epyon

 

[Huntergirl]

Lack of accountability of both the parents and the system play a major part in the dumbing down of youth. But also the influx of our cultural media, and the mindless stuff that the media elevates to "importance" derails the attention of our youth, to focus on looks, the packages versus the brain. The values of our culture, implyed by the media, involve the superficial, get it now, self gratification, not moral integrity, or achievement through hard work, use of the brain. We see the result, stupid, rude, self serving kids, who have the "latest" of distractive electronics and clothing. Look at Youtube and tell me different.
Kids today versus kids of thirty years ago big difference.
There was this interview of the mother of a teenage guy, who had emailed nude photos of a sixteen year old girl to a friend. She said she was shocked to find the photos of the girl on his computer, and told him to delete them at once. But he had already emailed photos of them to his "best" friends. This of course was a crime. He rationalized that he only emailed them to his friends, and did not originate the photos, and the mother also muddied the truth, by saying that the full blame should go to the girl who put them on the internet. Many lapses of moral integrity here, not to mention, the fact that both mother and son got to be on TV, "importance", distraction, not accountability. This kind of thinking and focus extends to education and what our culture really defines as vital to learn.

 

[wingman]

It's important to point out as well, that each generation is more literate than the last. The people complaining about young people not knowing how to read or using poor grammar, either forget or dont realize that far more kids in their day were worse.

I do wish you were correct and that is the way it should be however you are simply wrong, we have an over 50% rate of drop outs in many school systems. Before retirement I worked in hiring and training of young high school and college grads for entry level jobs most could not fill out the most simply forms, very little math, etc, our public schools and parents have failed, best to admit it and try to improve future generations.

 

[nate45]

As Tonto said 'what do you mean we paleface'

 

[Huntergirl]

Until OUR culture deems it important, and it is demonstrated in our media, it will not happen. Culture and media are connected. The suggestive photos of Miley Cyrus, illustrate the rationalizing of "rightness" by her father Billyray. First he said he didn't view them because he had to go to another commitment, when the photos were taken. But in truth, he immediately came back to do the photo of him and Miley together, when asked for one, yeh, because it involved a photo opp for him. Then the photos were sent to him, and he approved them. But he initially denied seeing them, until caught in a lie. People will rationalize their way out of following through their parental supervision of their kids. Mom and dads rationalizing that they need to work more to get the basics, maybe so, but also define what they need for basics. Like more consumer junk or trappings, or like food and mortgage? Celebrities, some say are not regular folks, but in many ways the thinking is still there. Common denominator, cultural values.

 

[Nielz]

This isn't encouraging news.

 

[Darren007]

I do wish you were correct and that is the way it should be however you are simply wrong, we have an over 50% rate of drop outs in many school systems.

Well, uhhh....I am correct. This is from a report from "The National Center for Education Statistics" and The U.S. Dept. of Education....

..."• National status dropout rates: In October 2004, approximately 3.8 million 16-through 24-year-olds were not enrolled in high school and had not earned a high schooldiploma or alternative credential such as a GED (table 6). These status dropouts accounted for 10.3 percent of the 36.5 million 16- through 24-year-olds in the United States in 2004. Among all individuals in this age group, status dropout rates declined between 1972 and 2004, from 14.6 percent to 10.3 percent (figure 2 and table 7). Unlike event dropout
rates, which have no general patterns between 1990 and 2004, status rates declined over this period."...

You can read the full report here.....

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2007/2007024.pdf

Before retirement I worked in hiring and training of young high school and college grads for entry level jobs most could not fill out the most simply forms, very little math, etc, our public schools and parents have failed, best to admit it and try to improve future generations.

Sorry, I just dont see how you get a "50%" drop out rate and "the public schools and parents have failed" from a few people filling out forms.
We have to go by actual statistics not biased perceptions.

 

[DieHard06]

I think when he said 50% drop out rates in some school districts he was speaking of the reports that came out a couple of years ago and were again repeated a couple of weeks ago on some news stations such as Fox News that stated that in some cities 50% of high school students aren't graduating. Some are graduating fewer than 50% of their students.

Here is a link to one news source though it has been done by multiple other news broadcasters.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-06-20-dropout-rates_x.htm

Also, his observation on school hirings is not biased and is a common sentiment among many employers from Mcdonald's to Wal-mart. Many kids don't want to keep a job or can't even do basic math to cover the skills needed to run a cash register (like how to add up change for a $1.38, which has happened to me more than once).