Judgement criteria for a good pistol load

[Nathan]

I’m reloading for a 1911 and I was testing loads to determine what recipe for all 500-1000 rounds.

So, I load 5 of each charge weight and shoot them into a 15yd target. Recoil was mild at the lightest 2 loads and pretty heavy at max loads.

Groups were shot unrested..maybe a bad idea....accuracy wasn’t great, but the heaviest charges were a little better.

Also heavier charges were better aligned poi to poa.

So, how do you select the load to move on with loading up some training ammo?

 

[noylj]

Shoot at 25-50 yards.
Shoot over a rest.
Concentrate on the front sight, if possible.
Apply light continual pressure to trigger--should surprise you when gun goes off.
Load
Do you want most accurate? Look to 185 gn JHP or 200gn L-SWC bullets. The net is full of excellent loads. Look for data that fits with data in manuals and actually gives accuracy data--not just someone saying it is accurate. For many, hitting a 6" plate at ten yards is accurate. To others, anything over 2" at 50 yards is a reject. Also, one target does not make an accurate load.
JMB originally designed the cartridge for a 200gn FMJ bullet.
Do you want good enough? Look for load that is comfortable and stays in A zone of IPSC target, stays in heart region of man-shaped target, or kicks a can at 25 yards at least 4 out of 5 times--whatever you think is adequate. Load should be pleasant to shoot.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

So, how do you select the load to move on with loading up some training ammo?

The purpose of training ammo is to train. (:duh:)

To train well, training loads should shoot as much like the "real life" loads as possible. In fact, maybe three or four years ago Winchester came out with a line of ammunition that was created exactly for this purpose -- the line (in 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP) included a JHP self-defense or "duty" round, and a round nose or flat point round of the same bullet weight and muzzle velocity for training. I think the best way to work up a training round is to pick your self-defense round, run it over a chronograph, and then work up a practice load using bullets of the same weight that generates the same muzzle velocity.

 

[Unclenick]

We need a statement of purpose as in, practicing for what kind of shooting?

 

[Radny97]

A good load really depends on the purpose of the load. Are we talking bianchi level accuracy? Or is this just range use? USPSA competition?
They all have different priorities.
Will it be shot through a fixed sight gun so you have to worry about matching point of aim to point of impact?
Fixed sight guns are for fast relatively close shooting. If it shoots to point of aim and holds a three inch group at 15 yards that’s really not hard to do. Then it’s just about choosing a powder that is clean and has a soft recoil impulse.

Loading for extreme accuracy is usually the hardest. I’ve found that careful bullet selection and low ES is the best predictor of an accurate handgun round.


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[Nathan]

Practice to be competent with my SD pistol. 5-6” accuracy at max speed at 5-15 yards. I may use the same stuff in IDPA.

Well, my plan for Monday is benchrest over sandbags, with my Labradar setup to capture velocities.

My SD ammo is Federal HST 124gr so, I need to fire 5 of those to get a baseline velocity. Thinking 1100ish.

 

[Shadow9mm]

For me. I test my loads from start to max to make sure they all run, and there are no pressure signs. Then I run them over the chronograph to see if any charge weight is significantly more consistent than the others and check the casings for excess powder residue. Basically, am I getting a full clean burn.

After that, as long as there are no pressure signs, I can pick whatever load I want. I generally go for the one with the lowest SD/ES indicating the best burn.

 

[44 AMP]

Groups were shot unrested..maybe a bad idea....accuracy wasn’t great,..

Shooting from a rest only tells you what your gun, ammo, and you can do from a rest. Somewhat useful, but no indicator of what you, your gun, and your ammo will do shot from a field position (unrested).

 

[jetinteriorguy]

I don’t work up loads shooting from a rest. Since recoil and how you react to it are all part of the accuracy with which you shoot I get my best results by feeling how each load shoots as well as results on paper. My pistols are purely for SD use and as long as I can shoot a load into a 4” circle at 10yds as fast as I can pull the trigger and keep them in this group size I’m good. I feel shooting from a rest will show how the gun best shoots but not necessarily how well you’ll shoot.

 

[rclark]

I feel shooting from a rest will show how the gun best shoots but not necessarily how well you’ll shoot.

Of course. What that means is you have the opportunity to shoot 'better'. If benching shows 1" at 25 yards, and off hand you shoot 8" ... Well, you know it isn't the gun causing the problem! Now you can concentrate on getting better knowing the gun/load is not the culprit for the dismal results. Benching or shooting from a rest has it's place.

I don't shoot semi-auto firearms much. The only ones I have is a Mark II and a SGS .22 which hardly make it out to the range. For my center fire revolvers it is all about acceptable accuracy of a given load at a desired velocity. For example when I am testing .45 Colt, I am looking for a 250-255g bullet moving 900-1000fps. If the load has a low ES and is accurate (a couple inches at 25Y is my rule of thumb) then probably good to go. Initial testing is usually 15 yards over a chronograph. I shoot 15 rounds per load, so that I get a good feel for it. Also SD and ES is more meaningful (statistically SD requires at least 10 samples anyway, meaningless otherwise). I used to shoot 30 per load. After testing a range of loads, I'll reload a box of 100 with the one I 'liked' the best. Then later, do some off-hand shooting with it at distances from 15Y to 50Y as a verification as this is how I'd normally use the gun. If that works out it, is a keeper. That's my judgement criteria. Your mileage may vary of course.

 

[RickB]

I have literally never worked-up a pistol load based on accuracy, it's always been an efficient/economical load, followed by making a desired velocity, so my shooting of test loads is over a chrono, but usually without a target.
After I get my desired velocity, I'll adjust zero, but really pay no attention to groups size, only location.
I'll shoot at ten yards to get close, then shoot offhand at 25 yards, as offhand is the only type of shooting I do, and rarely beyond 25 yards.

 

[Radny97]

Practice to be competent with my SD pistol. 5-6” accuracy at max speed at 5-15 yards. I may use the same stuff in IDPA.

Well, my plan for Monday is benchrest over sandbags, with my Labradar setup to capture velocities.

My SD ammo is Federal HST 124gr so, I need to fire 5 of those to get a baseline velocity. Thinking 1100ish.

If that’s the case then you’re really just looking for appropriate velocity, POA=POI and that it cycles reliably and is clean.
When I’m trying to match my SD loads in 9mm I usually default to HS-6 and run it over the Chrono until I’m in the same velocity ballpark. Don’t try to load for accuracy. At 15 yards almost any load will be sufficient for accuracy unless they aren’t stable.


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[Nathan]

What is a good 5 round sd to you?

 

[Nathan]

Well, the Fed HST goes 1160fps from my gun. The most accurate load to pray was 5.0 gr into about 1.0” @ 15yds.

The load that matched the federal HST was the 5.4gr load. I think it ran 1150fos. It was second most accurate at 1.3”.

I think I’ll load the 5.4gr load as it was accurate enough and hit the velocity of the sd load.

 

[Grey_Lion]

So to expand on Uncle Nick's question - you mentioned IDPA. Are you doing IDPA to improve your defensive reaction? Most defensive shooting incidents happen at ranges of zero to 18 feet and are usually over in well under a minute. With that said, do you have a known threat you are defending against? And what will you need the projectile to defeat given your most likely threat? Also, what's going to be behind your likely target that you need to consider when thinking of round penetration? For example, for many years, my most likely threat was expected to be being run down by a minivan - so I needed a round that would consistently defeat a minivan's front windshield with stopping power after penetration. With that said, I did not want over-penetration which might cause collateral damage. My solution was a .40 S&W with a magazine of mixed 180 solid and JHP rounds. It would easily defeat a front windshield and have the needed stopping power. Top of the mag is 3 JHP's, then staggered JHPs and ball rounds - then ending in solid ball rounds for penetration as needed if I needed to empty the mag. This covered the most likely defensive shooting scenarios I was likely to find myself in. I fired a very different weapon and very different ammunition for competition - but that was many years ago. Points to ponder.....

 

[Unclenick]

…At 15 yards almost any load will be sufficient for accuracy unless they aren’t stable.

At 15 yards even a lot of unstable bullets will still hit. In one of the old books (Keith?) it was suggested a lot of pre-20th century guns had shallow rifling that didn't always succeed in grabbing a lead bullet, so lead bullets from them would routinely be unstable and tumble and that a lot of owner's liked that as they thought the stopping power was better.

 

[Nathan]

@Grey_Lion.....I hopee Ed you never had to use that 40....I’d suggest you discuss your defensive planning with your attorney.

I’m just trying to entertain something other than accuracy only as a load selector.

 

[gwpercle]

1911 - 45 acp
1.) 100% cycling of the gun ... it must feed, fire , eject and reload reliably .
2.) Accuracy - 2 inch groups at 25 yards .
3.) Mid range power level . Maximum loads pound both the gun and shooter , loads should be pleasant to shoot not painful ... practice ammo should allow you to practice a good deal .
7 hot heavy rounds and then go home ... isn't much practice .
Gary

 

[Shadow9mm]

What is a good 5 round sd to you?

CAUTION: The following post (or a page linked to) includes or discusses loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge (QuickLOAD or Gordon's Reloading Tool data is not professionally tested). USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.


In short. I generally look at ES a lot more than SD. For ES I generally try to keep it under 75fps. For SD in the 30s or under.

With that said I am making training round not match ammo. This suits my needs. I know plenty will scoff at my goal numbers but I am generally using mixed brass which makes the tight numbers hard to achieve. To me a good SD and ES just tells me I am getting good full combustion.

My last testing phase was only 3 round groups to do a final check on some loads
9mm
Berrys 124g Plated, seated to 1.134 with a moderate crimp
Winchester Small rifle primers
I thing it was once fired blazer brass
HP-38 powder

4.4g ES 85, SD 44.12 moderately sooty case mouths
4.6g ES 73, SD 36.76 moderately sooth case mouths
4.8g ES 16, SD 8.19, very lightly sooty case mouths.


To me it just takes a little tinkering. I work up to max to max sure its safe. then work back down over the chrono to see what gets me a clean burn.

One of the joys or reloading is deciding what your goals are. You can work up light loads for plinking. or heavy hot loads to knocking over steel plates. You can tune them to for point of impact. I recently got a sig that uses a combat hold vs the center hold I am used to. You can adapt your hold. or your load.

 

[Shadow9mm]

So to expand on Uncle Nick's question - you mentioned IDPA. Are you doing IDPA to improve your defensive reaction? Most defensive shooting incidents happen at ranges of zero to 18 feet and are usually over in well under a minute. With that said, do you have a known threat you are defending against? And what will you need the projectile to defeat given your most likely threat? Also, what's going to be behind your likely target that you need to consider when thinking of round penetration? For example, for many years, my most likely threat was expected to be being run down by a minivan - so I needed a round that would consistently defeat a minivan's front windshield with stopping power after penetration. With that said, I did not want over-penetration which might cause collateral damage. My solution was a .40 S&W with a magazine of mixed 180 solid and JHP rounds. It would easily defeat a front windshield and have the needed stopping power. Top of the mag is 3 JHP's, then staggered JHPs and ball rounds - then ending in solid ball rounds for penetration as needed if I needed to empty the mag. This covered the most likely defensive shooting scenarios I was likely to find myself in. I fired a very different weapon and very different ammunition for competition - but that was many years ago. Points to ponder.....

Um..... I don't know where to start.....

Ok, IMHO this is off topic. He requested help with load development, not new caliber suggestions. He stated training, not defensive use. Most defensive rounds will reliably penetrate a windshield. A good defensive round will penetrate and still be effective. ball ammo, in most circumstances will penetrate far deeper than the FBI criteria, IMHO over penetrate. Staggering rounds is also IMHO a bag idea. Its almost impossible to keep track of what you are shooting as you are shooting. most people cant even count rounds let alone remember what sequence they were loaded in.

IMHO its a hugely bad idea.

Obviously its a free country, you can do as you like. As previously suggested it would probably be wise to talk with an attorney. Why you ask? Because if, God forbid you, should ever need to use your gun, this post will probably be listed as exhibit #1 as to why you are a bad person out trying to find someone to murder, at both a criminal and civil trial.