It won't fire unless you pull the trigger

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PT111

New member
I always sort of grin when I hear someone say this and thought I would tell this stroy on a fellow that I used to work with. This was over 40 years ago in the days of Saturday Night Specials and the .25 auto was extremely popular. It seems that this fellow had a habit of carrying one around in his hip pocket. While driving the tractor plowing the fields one day all of a sudden this little pistol starts going off. Not only did it fire the one in the chamber but for some reason went into full auto mode and fired the entire magazine. Luckily the gun was pointed away from him and other than the seat of his pants being blown out and a blistered cheek there were no injuries, not even to the tractor seat.

I don't offer this story for anything other than a warning about the dangers of stupidity but he didn't pull the trigger. Still trying to decide if this was a ND or AD. :)
 
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Justme

Moderator
My cousin shot his thigh and nearly bled to death from a nicked artery. He was carrying a 6" security six complete with functioning transfer bar and all. It happened while he was climbing over a fence, the gun was in a bianchi thumb break holster.

That accident happened when I was a teenager and taught me that accidents happen. I don't crawl over fences while I have a gun, and I don't carry a semi-auto with a round in the chamber. Some would call me overly cautious, they might be right.
 
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newerguy

New member
Actually, it a gun can fire if you don't pull the trigger, but it usually requires either being dropped or a mechanical failure. For your description of the event (a cheep handgun went full-auto while in somebodies pocket), I think it's possible that the sear, notch on the hammer, or some other part failed (broke) and allowed the gun to fire full auto.

I've seen a 1911 go full auto when the sear broke while firing.
 
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JoeBlackSpade

New member
Thanks for sharing the story.

That's why I don't carry with a round in the chamber.

I've taken snotty comments and much heat for it, but I carry with a mag in the well, and empty chamber. If I need to draw, I take 0.2 of a second to rack my slide as I'm punching out. There's almost zero noticeable difference from putting my rounds on target, and that's how I train.

There are many, many people who believe in carrying a round in the chamber, and they mostly cite accessibility, and speed. While I understand their logic, I flat out disagree with it, and can show that such practices are circular arguments, except in certain cases (like law enforcement, or increased presence of danger). This is especially valid if you carry concealed in your POCKET.
 
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Justme

Moderator
I have heard, but not verified, that Mossad trains racking the slide as they pull the weapon. I don't train as much as those guys do so I don't have a callous on my off hand for banging the front sight against, but I carry a Keltec and the slide is very very easy.

If I felt that the time needed to rack the slide was dangerous I would switch to a revolver. It's a tradeoff, as most things are. In my mind the exceptionally small chance that my gun might go off accidentally is bigger than the unthinkingly small chance that my off hand would be confined or that the split second it takes to rack the slide would matter. For other people the trade off might be different.
 
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JoeBlackSpade

New member
I have heard, but not verified, that Mossad trains racking the slide as they pull the weapon. I don't train as much as those guys do so I don't have a callous on my off hand for banging the front sight against, but I carry a Keltec and the slide is very very easy.
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Don't know about Mossad, but its a fact that many Israeli agencies train this way. I have a friend in Israeli military, and that subject has come up in years gone by.

If you rack as you punch out, and you train that way, IMO there is no appreciable difference in speed, except when we are talking about World Class matches, where shots are made and matches are won or lost in .002 of a second.
 
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RedneckFur

New member
The only gun i've ever seen go full auto on its own was a 1911, and they're suposedly one of the safest auto designs. For that reason, I never keep an auto pistol or rifle with a round in the chamber, and I keep the revovler i use for SD pointed in a direction where it wont hurt me or anyone else in my house should it decide to let one go.
 
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nate45

New member
This preoccupation with safety in gunhandling has assumed truly ridiculous proportions.

I have been associated with personal firearms, both in and out of the service, for all my life, and so-called negligent discharges have never been any sort of a problem.

(There is no such thing as an "accidental discharge."
If a weapon is fired inadvertently, somebody has violated at least one of the four basic rules - and usually more than one.)


Safety is an illusion, since life itself is not safe.

We avoid hurting ourselves, or each other, insofar as this is practicable, but when we redouble our efforts after having lost sight of our goal, we become ridiculous.

I have worked with thousands of fighting men, all of whom were armed with deadly weapons, and I never saw a reason to place safety above efficiency.

In the first place, it cannot be done.

And in the second place, it should not be attempted.

Jeff Cooper's Commentaries
http://dvc.org.uk/jeff/jeff11_8.html
 
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Justme

Moderator
Cooper's comments might have some validity as it applies to LE and military personell. The rest of us? I don't think so.
 
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Justme

Moderator
Cooper's assertions aside, this is a problem I like the call journeyman hubris. I have seen it in the coal mines, on the flight line and especially among hunters. It's caused by being familiar enough with dangerous equipment to lose your fear but not familiar enough to realise your initial fear was warranted.

If you are around dangerous equipment for 2 or 3 years you tend to start thinking it isn't as dangerous as you might have first thought. If you are around that equipment long enough you and people you respect will have made enough mistakes that you will realise just how deadly mistakes can be.
 
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Double Naught Spy

New member
Don't know about Mossad, but its a fact that many Israeli agencies train this way. I have a friend in Israeli military, and that subject has come up in years gone by.
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And there is a reason why nobody else does it this way. It isn't practical in a crisis, especially when your weak hand that is supposed to be racking the slide is otherwise engaged in other activities such as fending of blows/stabs, etc.

(There is no such thing as an "accidental discharge."
If a weapon is fired inadvertently, somebody has violated at least one of the four basic rules - and usually more than one.)
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This is just plain wrong. Mechanical malfunctions do happen, very rarely, but that do, and as a result, guns can discharge without any of the four safety rules being broken. Note that none of the safety rules mention anything about design flaws (e.g. Japanese Nambu pistol with the exposed sear that would discharge if the exposed sear was accidently depressed) or mechanical breakdowns. Now if somebody is hurt as a result of a true accidental discharge such as a mechanical failure, then at least one safety rule has been broken, but the discharge would still be accidental.

It seems that this fellow had a habit of carrying one around in his hip pocket. While driving the tractor plowing the fields one day all of a sudden this little pistol starts going off. Not only did it fire the one in the chamber but for some reason went into full auto mode and fired the entire magazine.
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I am having a bit of trouble with the story of the semi-auto SNS going full auto while in the pocket. Not only did something cause it to discharge and remain doing so, but it means that the slide was able to move fully through its travel in both directions multiple times and it means that spent casings were completely ejected from the gun and did not get stovepiped. There must have been considerable room in the pocket such that the slide could move freely in one axis and there still be space for casings to eject in another axis without hampering either.
 
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Jim Watson

New member
I have READ that the reason Israelis train Condition 3 is that in the early years they were armed with such a hodgepodge of weapons that they chose a technique that would work for any autopistol. Uniformity of method then, entrenched policy now. It can be quick, but it also assumes you have both hands available.

It amazes me how many of these dropped gun and broken part discharges occur with no witnesses. A suspicious person might think the account is being fabricated to cover up careless handling. I am pretty sure that an accident report in this area a number of years ago was contrived to cover up a domestic dispute gone violent.

A national columnist of rural background once reported what sounded like a mechanical failure AD followed by coverup and denial by the manufacturer. Sounded a little hokey to start with, moreso when I learned that the redneck author was the product of a very Liberal education and quite anti-gun.
 
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Gbro

New member
One of my co-workers lost his life a few years back when his carry gun fell out of the holster as he climbed into his boat in his garage.
What a loss.
Safety is not an illusion, Condition 3 would have made a difference here.
 
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nate45

New member
Now if somebody is hurt as a result of a true accidental discharge such as a mechanical failure, then at least one safety rule has been broken, but the discharge would still be accidental.
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Ah the faulty or worn sear.

Would it not be the responsiblity of the firearms owner to make sure it was in good repair?

If you are around dangerous equipment for 2 or 3 years you tend to start thinking it isn't as dangerous as you might have first thought. If you are around that equipment long enough you and people you respect will have made enough mistakes that you will realise just how deadly mistakes can be.
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Who among us thinks firearms in general and pistols in particular are not dangerous?

If they weren't dangerous they would not make very good weapons.

One of my co-workers lost his life a few years back when his carry gun fell out of the holster as he climbed into his boat in his garage.
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Is one mans failure to retain his weapon and the unfourtunate accident that resulted a basis for abandoning condition 1 carry?

I think not.

If anything it teaches us to properly secure our weapons.

It amazes me how many of these dropped gun and broken part discharges occur with no witnesses. A suspicious person might think the account is being fabricated to cover up careless handling. I am pretty sure that an accident report in this area a number of years ago was contrived to cover up a domestic dispute gone violent.
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Yes it's amazing how many anecdotes of spontaneous discharge there are.

Yet if you do a search for documented cases how many can you find?
 
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Whirlwind06

New member
If you rack as you punch out, and you train that way, IMO there is no appreciable difference in speed, except when we are talking about World Class matches, where shots are made and matches are won or lost in .002 of a second.
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That .002 could mean the difference between surviving or not.
So many things that can go wrong, why add another? So many what ifs.

what if you have to fire from retention.
what if your weak hand is busy pushing a loved one out of the line of fire.
what if it is raining and you hands are wet. Do you practice the slide rack with sweaty hands?
what if the first round jams the gun.

To each his own but I will put my trust in the 4 rules.
A good holster and well maintained, quality tools. And carry with a round in the chamber.
 
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Double Naught Spy

New member
Ah the faulty or worn sear.

Would it not be the responsiblity of the firearms owner to make sure it was in good repair?
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Yes, if it was a part that broke as a result of wear or was missed as being problematic during normal/routine cleaning. Short of x-raying the gun and its parts on a regular basis, it can be very easy to miss stress fractures and the like.

Most of us do not x-ray the parts of our guns and the factory does not either. So defective parts do leave the factory and get into consumer hands and stress fractures not visible to the naked eye also occur and may fail before being able to be recognized as a problem.
 
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TEDDY

Moderator
AD

I had a police officer friend carried a star 25 backup.dropped it one day and got full auto.the star firing pin waslong enough to protrude when hammer was
down.I fixed that.antraded a colt 32 acp with broken firing pin for my labor.
I never carry a hammerless with chamber loaded,I dont trust the safety.the torkorev cannot be carried with loaded chamber as firing pin will rest on primer.----:confused:----:)
 
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